Is this a plothole? Question about the Endless

[Vyrerus]

It occurred to me that there is an instance of cloning of someone in the lore; Pupu clones Hildibrand with his spaceship, lol. The clones don't require some seem to require any soul or memory aether (at least I don't remember that coming up), but they have all the characteristics and personality of the person. Doesn't it throw a wrench into explanation of requiring aether to make the endless if not even physical clones require it?

Can actually just assume that Pupu's cloning cloned their souls too. It's not really explained 100% and Hildibrand often does ridiculous things that most Lore experts will shy away from. I think Anonymoose, one of the pre-eminent Lore Heads, always liked to claim that Hildibrand exists in a bubble of exaggeration and not of FFXIV's reality.

(which I don't agree with, but hey whatever floats folks' boats)

[Steelpapercranes]

I refuse to believe a Sharlayan scholar simply forgot how the afterlife works in regards to his mother. Like you've pointed out the Sharalyans have dug multiple holes to the underworld and have studied it. Given the purpose of the aetherial sea is to wash away memories, sending memories to the aetherial sea with no soul should be like dropping them in a vat of acid. Not to mention, these memories are on an entirely different shard, if they did return to the aetherial sea, they should return to THAT aetherial sea and even if those memories could rejoin with Cahcuia's soul, her soul is likely in a soul cell back on the Source. Given Cahcuia states multiple times that they are just copies as the justification of why it's okay to erase them and we meet a copy of Otis, I'd be inclined to believe that the Endless are copies.

EXCEPT!

They show us the process and the memory aether is extracted and they state they are made of memory aether.

That's like telling me, a machine scanned you and I'm interacting with a virtual copy of you and then showing me them surgically removing your brain and sticking it in the machine. That's a massive distinction that needs to be clarified and there is evidence of both.

Also, Moenbryda gave up her lifeforce to help destroy the Ascian, same thing Papalymo did to imprison Shinryu. Using up all your lifeforce kills you, but it doesn't destroy your soul. There was nothing unexpected by their presence in the aetherial sea.

If a story doesn't have consistent rules, then there is no point to the story. If anything can happen at anytime, might as well skip to the combat with a 'kill, cause bad.'



I find it interesting that multiple people have come to the conclusion a Sharlayan scholar is just delusional about how the afterlife works and we've deleted the one and only copy of thousands of people denying them the slow fade that happens in the afterlife that would allow them to reconnect with their loved ones. Yikes. I'd like to remind you all, we kinda twisted his arm and made him delete his mom...are we sure we're the good guys?

I'll be honest, a lot of people are coping. And I don't blame them! This part of MSQ was SO rushed. You're completely right: they directly tell us it's just a copy multiple times, and also directly show us memory aether being physically removed from a corpse and show all the endless dissolving into the same aether when we delete/kill them. It's completely unambiguous both times and also directly contradictory. No one is gonna be happy trying to talk about this one, lol.

[Steelpapercranes]

If you ask me WHICH version of the Endless presentation I prefer, than Mechanical Otis is far superior than the zone 6 Endless. But like I said, his existence kinda just invalidate all the sentimental strings that zone 6 tried to pull. It would also a real condominium for us because it's much easier to make the argument that mechanical Otis is a actual life form and not just a memory.

This is my personal theory as to why mecha-Otis was killed so suddenly and so pointlessly. If we had 'living' Otis exist at the same time as 'Endless' Otis (well, they DID exist at the same time for like 400 years but I guess they want us to think about it), it would kind of make it unacceptably clear how what they're going for emotionally in living memory is NOT what's happening lol. They had to make sure he wasn't around in the hopes that we just wouldn't think that hard about it.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

This is my personal theory as to why mecha-Otis was killed so suddenly and so pointlessly. If we had 'living' Otis exist at the same time as 'Endless' Otis (well, they DID exist at the same time for like 400 years but I guess they want us to think about it), it would kind of make it unacceptably clear how what they're going for emotionally in living memory is NOT what's happening lol. They had to make sure he wasn't around in the hopes that we just wouldn't think that hard about it.

It also begs the question why they went with the Endless that require an ever increasing amount of aether that would eventually destroy all life in the universe, when they stumbled upon putting minds and souls into machines first. That along with hologram tech make their chosen solution which confines the Endless in one place and destroys the universe, extra stupid. They basically invented their own version of the Omicron, tossed out that idea and went with a paperclip paradox instead. WHY?

[Raven2014]

This is my personal theory as to why mecha-Otis was killed so suddenly and so pointlessly. If we had 'living' Otis exist at the same time as 'Endless' Otis (well, they DID exist at the same time for like 400 years but I guess they want us to think about it), it would kind of make it unacceptably clear how what they're going for emotionally in living memory is NOT what's happening lol. They had to make sure he wasn't around in the hopes that we just wouldn't think that hard about it.

It also begs the question why they went with the Endless that require an ever increasing amount of aether that would eventually destroy all life in the universe, when they stumbled upon putting minds and souls into machines first. That along with hologram tech make their chosen solution which confines the Endless in one place and destroys the universe, extra stupid. They basically invented their own version of the Omicron, tossed out that idea and went with a paperclip paradox instead. WHY?

Given the fact Mechanical Otis had no problem sustained himself for 400+ years, it does lend credential to the theory the writers realize they had to kill him off for anything in Zone 6 to make sense.


In a way, it's kinda like how Walt Disney wanted to side line Luke in StarWar so they can tell their own story instead.

[Bunyon]

I feel like living memory would have been a great plot thread to explore in the patches instead of rushing the MSQ through it. It really did feel like they did it just for some cheap emotional moments, and I felt like they were so rushed that they did not land for me at all.

Erenville's mom even says that you don't have to deactivate them right away, but you should because it will take away Sphene's motivation to go after other worlds. BUT THEN SPHENE DOESN'T ACKNOWLEDGE IT AT ALL. She's already a emotionless robot by then and doesn't even mention that all the endless have been deactivated. You end a whole civilization of a different dimension over the whim of a bunny girl without any moral considerations or discussion at all. They wanted to do everything at once, have their big ending. Y'shtola doesn't even get to be a part of it, because it is decided that 80% of the most experienced veterans of dealing with this kind of thing should be left guarding the gate.

I also see so many people that talk about how the story is about "letting go", but I feel like that was only introduced in the last zone?? The rest of the story was about war and peace and memory?? Erenville gets lied about his mom being dead and then finds it out at the last minute and then gets dragged along the last zone before being told to get over it and have one last good memory before having to fucking turn her off. And everyone is just like yeah okay. Jesus, I feel like Erenville got fucked over so bad. I don't even know how people found this emotional. Having to essentially kill what is left of your mom after she lies to you and you basically don't even have a moment to yourselves to talk about it, and mom just being like "Why can't you be happy for me, I want to die already".

Sorry, this turned into a bit of a rant.

[OMGJesuis66]

I also see so many people that talk about how the story is about "letting go", but I feel like that was only introduced in the last zone?? The rest of the story was about war and peace and memory?? Erenville gets lied about his mom being dead and then finds it out at the last minute and then gets dragged along the last zone before being told to get over it and have one last good memory before having to fucking turn her off. And everyone is just like yeah okay. Jesus, I feel like Erenville got fucked over so bad. I don't even know how people found this emotional. Having to essentially kill what is left of your mom after she lies to you and you basically don't even have a moment to yourselves to talk about it, and mom just being like "Why can't you be happy for me, I want to die already".

It's not about "letting go". It's about Legacy.
All the themes were about different approaches over the theme "legacy". The expectation to uphold it, the dismissal of it, the ignorance that comes from it, the status quo of preserving it, the burden of carrying it.

Erenville was indeed a sad moment, it was basically plugging his mom from life support. It was the right thing to do, but devastating for him for sure.

[Bunyon]

I grant you that Legacy as a theme does fit through the expansion, but given how poorly some characters got developed really did not help (there were especially missed opportunities we could've gotten with Zoraal Ja to develop him a bit more which would have served that theme a lot better, in my opinion).

To go back on topic though, my main point was just that it was all too rushed and didn't have to be. Could've defeated Sphene and let Living Memory use up the last of its energies during the patches, come to learn a bit more about this world that was and form some more meaningful bonds with the characters there before shutting them down. Even the world itself would've felt a bit more impactful to shut down had you had time to spend in it before having to do it. You don't even get flight before it's already a grey murky mess. Its hard to feel like you're "letting go" of something when you have hardly any attachment to it.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Given the fact Mechanical Otis had no problem sustained himself for 400+ years, it does lend credential to the theory the writers realize they had to kill him off for anything in Zone 6 to make sense.


In a way, it's kinda like how Walt Disney wanted to side line Luke in StarWar so they can tell their own story instead.

Even then it doesn't make sense because regulators exist and from Sphene's wording it makes it sound like the new MACHINES have regulators. Why would that be the case? But because that's the case that means even if you put memories and souls in machines, if you give those machines regulators you can just put them in new machines if that machine breaks down. These idiots have already figured out a less stupid path to immortality yet went with the method that literally destroys all life instead. WHY?!

Sorry, this turned into a bit of a rant.

You have every right to rant. You paid $40 for this slop.

It's not about "letting go". It's about Legacy.
All the themes were about different approaches over the theme "legacy". The expectation to uphold it, the dismissal of it, the ignorance that comes from it, the status quo of preserving it, the burden of carrying it.

Erenville was indeed a sad moment, it was basically plugging his mom from life support. It was the right thing to do, but devastating for him for sure.

While I agree they tried to write a story about legacy, what we got was a bunch of trash parents dumping their baggage onto kids they failed to properly raise.

[aTanpopo]

I also see so many people that talk about how the story is about "letting go", but I feel like that was only introduced in the last zone?? The rest of the story was about war and peace and memory?? Erenville gets lied about his mom being dead and then finds it out at the last minute and then gets dragged along the last zone before being told to get over it and have one last good memory before having to fucking turn her off. And everyone is just like yeah okay. Jesus, I feel like Erenville got fucked over so bad. I don't even know how people found this emotional. Having to essentially kill what is left of your mom after she lies to you and you basically don't even have a moment to yourselves to talk about it, and mom just being like "Why can't you be happy for me, I want to die already".

Sorry, this turned into a bit of a rant.

I found it emotional even though it was rushed just because of the overall storyline between them. She's seemingly rarely around for much of his childhood, grows up lonely and shunning the company of other people, but Cahcuia fills him with this hope that he can go with her one day if he just finds the golden city. He can't find it and gives up, thinking its just some fairy tale she told him to get him to go touch grass. He's left feeling she never takes into account how he feels, just goes off an enjoys herself and leaves him behind time and time again.

Cut to DT, he finds the City is real, finally finds it and right when he's about to actually go home and maybe get to go on that adventure with his mum that he's always wanted, she dies. And then before he can even process that, there she is standing in front of him as an endless and telling him that he has to delete her. He gets to spend time with her like he wanted to as a child, but only for a moment, because once again she's made all the decisions for him- she'll have fun going on this last little adventure then she'll leave him behind, and this time she's not coming back.

Yeah it was rushed and i wish there was more time spent actually exploring all of the implied tension between the two of them. I think the very quick turn around on being angry at her to deciding to take on her dying wish was a bit too quick, but the overall idea of this relationship really broke my heart tbh and I couldn't help but get emotional.