Is this a plothole? Question about the Endless

[Nitelancer]

It occurred to me that there is an instance of cloning of someone in the lore; Pupu clones Hildibrand with his spaceship, lol. The clones don't require some seem to require any soul or memory aether (at least I don't remember that coming up), but they have all the characteristics and personality of the person. Doesn't it throw a wrench into explanation of requiring aether to make the endless if not even physical clones require it?

[Striker44]

If he's supposed to be at Acceptance, which I agree given he's saying this with a big smile on his face, why are people claiming he's just in Denial?

Simple - the expansion is about "Testing and Acceptance" for us (the players behind the 4th wall). For Erenville in the game at that moment, he's just experienced the loss and is in denial.

[KylePearlsand]

Otis is noted to be an odd case in story, given that he was basically the first test subject for the process. Robot-Otis is clearly Otis's Soul+Memory Aethers, so (Proto?)Endless-Otis can safely be assumed to be a copy of Otis's Memory Aether data pushed into some blank Aether rather than the original after being essentially surgically separated like later Endless.

As for Erenville and his mother, he's just being hopeful even though the whole process of making an Endless involves an accelerated version of the natural process of things where the Soul Aether is reborn while the Memory Aether is lost, outside of deeply traumatic events that end up "scarring" the Soul Aether like witnessing an apocalypse.

Another notable detail about Otis is he seems to clearly remember the bad memories. Seeing the actress playing Sphene "dead" triggered what seemed to be PTSD and a flashback to that memory. This is a trait other endless don't seem to share as the system intentionally sets them up to live their happiest memories and seemingly deletes the bad to set up those situations.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Simple - the expansion is about "Testing and Acceptance" for us (the players behind the 4th wall). For Erenville in the game at that moment, he's just experienced the loss and is in denial.

What did we have to test and accept? That was everyone else's mom being deleted, not ours. So basically, you want me to accept a character that has been consistently intelligent and rational has fallen into complete delusion with a big grin on his face in a post-credit scene because he's so sad?

I refuse. I think what happened is in this conflated and contradictory lore they've crafted it's the writers who aren't sure where Cahcuia is.

Another notable detail about Otis is he seems to clearly remember the bad memories. Seeing the actress playing Sphene "dead" triggered what seemed to be PTSD and a flashback to that memory. This is a trait other endless don't seem to share as the system intentionally sets them up to live their happiest memories and seemingly deletes the bad to set up those situations.

The players are doing more work than the writers to dehumanize the Endless to make the final zone work. The only tampering we've been told about is that Sphene was programmed to preserve the Endless, that's it. The system setting up reunions doesn't mean that it's been tampering with the minds of all the Endless. If that were the case, then Cahcuia shouldn't be able to exist in the way she does. She's an Endless that hates being an Endless. That finds a way to exist outside the system and lead a rebellion against it. And pushes for the destruction of the system she's in. If the system was altering memories to make people happy, it did a terrible job given Cahcuia is a literal rebel leader. Also, Krile's parents have been looking for ways to delete themselves and remember who Krile is and giving her up seemed like a pretty painful memory for them. Those examples, plus Otis seem to suggest the Endless have their full minds intact. It's the living people of Alexandria who have their memories manipulated to spare them grief.

[LilimoLimomo]

It occurred to me that there is an instance of cloning of someone in the lore; Pupu clones Hildibrand with his spaceship, lol. The clones don't require some seem to require any soul or memory aether (at least I don't remember that coming up), but they have all the characteristics and personality of the person. Doesn't it throw a wrench into explanation of requiring aether to make the endless if not even physical clones require it?

With respect, you're making quite a few assumptions here. We don't know anything about the material requirements for Pupu's cloning, nor do we even know if the clones have souls.

What we do know is that there is something materially different between the original and the clones, as Pupu's saucer has a function that "deletes" clones but not originals. All in all, I don't think we have enough information to determine anything based on Pupu's extraterrestrial technology.

Just to add, there are two other instances of cloning in the game that I can think of:
- the Allagans did lots of cloning; Unei, Doga, Amon, etc
- Emperor Solus had a batch of cloned bodies (though presumably they lacked souls)

[ConantSivrha]

Regarding Erenville believing he’ll meet Cahciua in the Aetherial Sea:

On the surface, there appear to be two problems with this. Firstly, because the memories of Cahciua’s original soul were extracted and sent to Living Memory, and we deleted everyone in Living Memory, Cahciua presumably wouldn’t remember Erenville even if they did meet in the Aetherial Sea. Second, because the souls of the dead are extracted and turned into soul cells for use by other people, Cahciua’s original soul might not be in the Aetherial Sea in the first place.

The first problem might already have an answer. In Endwalker, when we meet Emet Selch and Hythlodaeus again in Ultima Thule, they remember their erased memories of the events that took place in Elpis. If the reason why was ever directly and explicitly confirmed, I don’t remember it, but I thought the implication was that the Aetherial Sea actually restores artificially erased memories, before it erases all of them itself…for whatever reason.

The second problem is more mysterious to me. Did we ever find out whether souls are infinitely “reusable” for the Alexandrians’ purposes?

As in: an Alexandrian who has never “died” before gets into an accident and “dies”. Their original soul leaves their body, goes to Origenics for processing, and is replaced with a new one from a soul cell. At some later point, this Alexandrian dies for real (perhaps of old age or illness, or perhaps in an accident when they have no extra soul cells). Does their current soul also get reprocessed into a new soul cell? Does it continue like this in perpetuity?

If it does, this would imply that the number of soul cells in circulation just keeps growing forever. Soul cells seem to be scarce to some extent, however, since they’re only given to those who are considered useful…but it also seems like people have grown accustomed to always having soul cells to ensure their continued existence. I assumed, at one point, that souls can only be turned into soul cells one time each, and “using” them would result in the soul being destroyed or returned to the Aetherial Sea, but I don’t think there’s direct evidence to support this.

Was the scarcity and rationing system of soul cells introduced with Zoraal Ja? Has their population just grown so much that the number of current living people is close to the total number of people who died after the introduction of regulators and soul cells?

[Havenchild]

Never in this game's history has there been a single example of a soul being copied. If that ever becomes possible, they might as well just set their afterlife lore on fire, cause they are done.

I'm not sure how you can come to another conclusion for Robo-Otis and Endless Otis.

Endless Otis remembers up to he becomes Robo Otis. Endless Otis is still "living" as an Endless though post death for hundreds of years?
Robo Otis remembers everything to present, again hundreds of years.

Each have distinct memories post experiment.

If Endless are made from Memories of a Soul, but according to Robo Otis, they merged his soul with the armor, then they had to have duplicated his soul somehow. I don't believe given the context we have, there is any other explanation.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

I'm not sure how you can come to another conclusion for Robo-Otis and Endless Otis.

Endless Otis remembers up to he becomes Robo Otis. Endless Otis is still "living" as an Endless though post death for hundreds of years?
Robo Otis remembers everything to present, again hundreds of years.

Each have distinct memories post experiment.

If Endless are made from Memories of a Soul, but according to Robo Otis, they merged his soul with the armor, then they had to have duplicated his soul somehow. I don't believe given the context we have, there is any other explanation.

Memory aether can be extracted from a soul. And it's said that the Endless are made of memory aether. However, regulators have to have the ability to hold a digital copy of memories in order to stamp your memories on top after it uses a soul cell to revive you. It can't be using your memory aether because that's not removed from your soul until after you die and your soul is processed in Origenics.

What the two Otises prove is that they have the ability to copy memories and create an Endless without extracting a person's memory aether. However, we're also told and shown that they *do* extract the memory aether.

If they had the ability to copy souls, then nothing they were doing would make sense. There would be no reason to attack the source, they could just dupe a bunch of souls. There would be no reason to exchange souls as currency, they could just dupe a bunch and everyone could be fully stocked the entire time. Actually, there would be no point in regulators, just give each person multiple copies of their own soul to use when they die and then there is no reason to stamp their memories on top as there is no threat of other personalities overpowering the primary one.

[Vyrerus]

It occurred to me that there is an instance of cloning of someone in the lore; Pupu clones Hildibrand with his spaceship, lol. The clones don't require some seem to require any soul or memory aether (at least I don't remember that coming up), but they have all the characteristics and personality of the person. Doesn't it throw a wrench into explanation of requiring aether to make the endless if not even physical clones require it?

Can actually just assume that Pupu's cloning cloned their souls too. It's not really explained 100% and Hildibrand often does ridiculous things that most Lore experts will shy away from. I think Anonymoose, one of the pre-eminent Lore Heads, always liked to claim that Hildibrand exists in a bubble of exaggeration and not of FFXIV's reality.

(which I don't agree with, but hey whatever floats folks' boats)

[Steelpapercranes]

I refuse to believe a Sharlayan scholar simply forgot how the afterlife works in regards to his mother. Like you've pointed out the Sharalyans have dug multiple holes to the underworld and have studied it. Given the purpose of the aetherial sea is to wash away memories, sending memories to the aetherial sea with no soul should be like dropping them in a vat of acid. Not to mention, these memories are on an entirely different shard, if they did return to the aetherial sea, they should return to THAT aetherial sea and even if those memories could rejoin with Cahcuia's soul, her soul is likely in a soul cell back on the Source. Given Cahcuia states multiple times that they are just copies as the justification of why it's okay to erase them and we meet a copy of Otis, I'd be inclined to believe that the Endless are copies.

EXCEPT!

They show us the process and the memory aether is extracted and they state they are made of memory aether.

That's like telling me, a machine scanned you and I'm interacting with a virtual copy of you and then showing me them surgically removing your brain and sticking it in the machine. That's a massive distinction that needs to be clarified and there is evidence of both.

Also, Moenbryda gave up her lifeforce to help destroy the Ascian, same thing Papalymo did to imprison Shinryu. Using up all your lifeforce kills you, but it doesn't destroy your soul. There was nothing unexpected by their presence in the aetherial sea.

If a story doesn't have consistent rules, then there is no point to the story. If anything can happen at anytime, might as well skip to the combat with a 'kill, cause bad.'



I find it interesting that multiple people have come to the conclusion a Sharlayan scholar is just delusional about how the afterlife works and we've deleted the one and only copy of thousands of people denying them the slow fade that happens in the afterlife that would allow them to reconnect with their loved ones. Yikes. I'd like to remind you all, we kinda twisted his arm and made him delete his mom...are we sure we're the good guys?

I'll be honest, a lot of people are coping. And I don't blame them! This part of MSQ was SO rushed. You're completely right: they directly tell us it's just a copy multiple times, and also directly show us memory aether being physically removed from a corpse and show all the endless dissolving into the same aether when we delete/kill them. It's completely unambiguous both times and also directly contradictory. No one is gonna be happy trying to talk about this one, lol.