Bring back Viper Noxious Gash

[Skyclaw726]

Genuinely, how?

We went from occasionally starting a combo string with the secondary opener to starting every other combo with it. It is undeniably noticeable. You can say you don't mind it, you can even prefer it. But claiming you don't notice anything either makes you a liar or someone who doesn't even read their abilities.

He isn't the only one, I didn't notice it either.

[WeakestZenosEnjoyer]

Noxious Gash wasn't exactly good but our replacement they came up with in 4 seconds is substantially worse. One of the core rotational decisions you were always making is ensuring Dreadwinder doesn't overcap Noxious by managing when to Steel Fangs and when to Dread Fangs, that is now removed with literally no replacement and "Vicewinder" can be mindlessly mashed whenever you feel like it since the CD can't even drift. New combo buffs are also overly generous which eliminates interactions with Reawaken. The only justification for having like 8 buttons total was all the interactions between them but now? Now it's just melee Summoner with double weaves.

They changed the very bones of Viper and that does objectively change the job. "Melee Summoner" is a subjective opinion but the Balance wouldn't be thinking about triple reawaken strings now if nothing changed.

[ovIm]

He isn't the only one, I didn't notice it either.

If you have not noticed a difference, then one could assume that you have alternated combo starters already, which would mean you have played the job wrong. That is just an assumption, and is not a criticism of you or your playstyle, mind you, just an objective fact to consider.
For people that did play the class right however (making a conscious note of the timer of Noxious Gnash, and deciding how and when to reapply it), they do notice a change in how the class plays, and that should be considered.

[Skyclaw726]

If you have not noticed a difference, then one could assume that you have alternated combo starters already, which would mean you have played the job wrong. That is just an assumption, and is not a criticism of you or your playstyle, mind you, just an objective fact to consider.
For people that did play the class right however (making a conscious note of the timer of Noxious Gnash, and deciding how and when to reapply it), they do notice a change in how the class plays, and that should be considered.

How does alternating combo starters mean playing the class wrong? I start with Noxious Gnash then go into Swiftscale and repeat until Awaken.

[ovIm]

How does alternating combo starters mean playing the class wrong? I start with Noxious Gnash then go into Swiftscale and repeat until Awaken.

Dread Fangs, and Dreadwinder, both applied 20s of Noxious Gnash, up to a maximum of 40seconds.
When playing the class right, you never wanted to use either Dread Fangs or Dreadwinder before the Noxious Gnash Debuff was below 20s duration. Doing so would mean playing the class wrong, as you do less damage (Dread Fangs was weaker than Steel Fangs), and also wasting ressources, as any Noxious Gnash generated above 40s would disappear into the void.

[Skyclaw726]

Dread Fangs, and Dreadwinder, both applied 20s of Noxious Gnash, up to a maximum of 40seconds.
When playing the class right, you never wanted to use either Dread Fangs or Dreadwinder before the Noxious Gnash Debuff was below 20s duration. Doing so would mean playing the class wrong, as you do less damage (Dread Fangs was weaker than Steel Fangs), and also wasting ressources, as any Noxious Gnash generated above 40s would disappear into the void.

That makes sense. I don't class that as playing the class wrong per say as rather not playing the class optimally which is something I have never done. I always do what is more comfortable to me, I have more fun that way.

[ovIm]

That makes sense. I don't class that as playing the class wrong per say as rather not playing the class optimally which is something I have never done. I always do what is more comfortable to me, I have more fun that way.

While we could argue whether that is simply wrong or unoptimized, I am sure you can see how people that enjoyed tracking the debuff and are now left with no other gameplay to make up for it are sad about it, no?

[Skyclaw726]

While we could argue whether that is simply wrong or unoptimized, I am sure you can see how people that enjoyed tracking the debuff and are now left with no other gameplay to make up for it are sad about it, no?

I can certainly see why they would be upset though I'd question how they found that enjoyable but I've already shown what I find enjoyable so perhaps I shouldn't question xD

[VellAshe]

Hey, just making a note in this forum as well.
To give context, I was actively running Viper in both EX Fights prior to Patch 7.05, and I am still presently running Viper in Savage content (M1S cleared, M2S almost cleared as of last night).
The changes made to Viper's kit are substantial, and I feel are a significant negative to the core of Viper's rotation, and I feel this needs to be stated as clear as possible as to why I feel this way.

The job was already very simple within Patch 7.01. Every weaponskill combo was effectively drawn out for you after the first weaponskill combo completed.
The Noxious Gnash debuff provided the job with a time-sensitive decision that needed to be made during the fight, between the rest of the monotony; a mental check that allowed players that actively and consciously choose between which weaponskill combo they wanted to open with.
Dreadwinder/Pit of Dread also applying Noxious Gnash provided additional routes of optimization that allowed VPR players to work on boss fights to minimize Dread Fang usage and maximize potency. It was a delicate dance, but it was a hint of complexity that allowed people who wanted to optimally play VPR to experiment .
Aligning your resources to maintain all of your buffs, Noxious Gnash, and have two Reawakenings within the game's own directed 2-minute window timers felt absolutely fantastic.

The complexity of the job was completely removed when Noxious Gnash was removed. Outside of the singular choice of Steel Fangs / Reaving Fangs when you open a fight, there is absolutely no choice made anymore. There is no reason not to use Vicewinder immediately on cooldown. There is no reason to ever deviate from the glowing buttons available on your hotbar. Outside of holding resources for 2 minute burst windows in harder fights or for pots, or perhaps using Uncoiled Fury stacks during forced downtime (which isn't even a major choice, since you can stock 3), literally every single weaponskill option is made for you.

And before someone brings up Triple Reawakening during pot window as a potential new burst, I don't feel like that is enough of a silver lining for this change.
I understand the necessity of making job classes more accessible, but I genuinely believe that this change goes too far and strips a portion of VPR's identity from it.
I'm open to having more discussions about it, of course. I loved this job when it released, and I want to see it better.

I am disheartened by the change this patch, but I am hopeful that the job can regain a bit of the identity it lost.

[Reinha]

That makes sense. I don't class that as playing the class wrong per say as rather not playing the class optimally which is something I have never done. I always do what is more comfortable to me, I have more fun that way.

If the people like yourself who were already alternating them without tracking the debuff never noticed the change, then it should be reverted and you can still keep having fun with an unoptimized rotation. You wouldn't even notice it's been reverted back.