How many more times must our Living Dead get griefed?

[Lorika]

LOL YES OK...

Hmm very strange how I rarely need Holmgang, but you virtually always need Last Resort. We must get better healers on Chaos or maybe just throwing it out there it might be a YOU problem.

But thank you!
As a healer on Chaos i rarelly have a Tank popping his invuln (DRK included)
And 70% of time it's because of what i described earlier on this post, 20% it's because of a dum***s DPS that pulled another pack of mobs because "we don't go fast enought" and the rest it's me doing a big fat mistake.

But all of this happen rarelly, past level 50 (before it's just.... eer... especially recently, at low level roulette i got a lot of tank with DPS gear hat only know the AOE, don't know how to align correctly mobs, ofc mit doesn't exist....Worse, they tank Ifrit in the middle with him facing the party *hello cleave*)

[ConantSivrha]

If we're going on all WAR's kit then that's a different thread and plenty to choose from.

As for DRK i've not played it, but from a healer perspective there seems to be a higher skill ceiling on DRK. When I come across them in dungeons it's either I don't have to worry about them or it's babysitting their health bar. But back to Last Resort the only time i've seen it used is in the 100 dungeons the first couple of weeks and endgame. Not ALL the time as OP stated.

Now if they are using it for every big pull as a safety crutch then again that's their problem.

Realistically, in this case, you’re right. I do still think it’s unfair to say something to the effect of “if I can do this on WAR, you shouldn’t have trouble with it on DRK”, especially if we’re talking about survivability in trash pulls, but OP’s problem likely is the result of a mistake they’re making. That, or they’re overestimating the frequency with which they encounter this problem. Most of the time, Dark Knights manage to stay alive without Living Dead (DRK’s invuln).

Maybe OP is betting too much on the idea that Living Dead will save them, so they press it and stop mitigating, and then the healer blows everything on trying to keep them alive while they’re actively trying to get to 1 HP. I wouldn’t exactly call myself the world’s best Dark Knight, but if I press Living Dead and get healed, I’ll change course so I’m working with the healer instead of against them, no matter how silly it looks to have Living Dead and TBN up at the same time.

Though, it’s worth mentioning that Living Dead is better than a Benediction if you manage to use it successfully. It’s designed to heal you for an amount equal to your max HP. It’s unfortunate that one of the most powerful tools in Dark Knight’s kit is stuck being treated as an “oh shit” button—one that usually isn’t even allowed to fulfill its purpose when used, at that. I do see why OP wishes they could use it.

[AnjouMaaka]

Time for another refocus.

Fact 1. Dark knights are having to use Living Dead as a last resort too many times in dungeons. I know this to be true because of my personal experience, both on the job and while leveling dps jobs.

Fact 2. Living Dead is being griefed in every single one of these scenarios where it is being used AS A LAST RESORT BUTTON.

Fact 3. Dark knights should not be needing Living Dead at all in dungeons.

Fact 4. If dark knight had self sustain, this would not be a problem. Dark knight has zero self sustain and is apparently chopped liver to Square Enix when it comes to self sustain.

Fact 5. It is not ALL healers doing this to dark knights, and it is not every single dungeon run as dark knight that Living Dead ends up being needed. Unfortunately, because of how rare it is for a healer to keep a dark knight alive in dungeons, it is impossible to conclude that there aren't healers out there doing this intentionally.

Fact 6. Some of the healers doing this is a direct result of the other 3 tanks doing all the work for them. You can't learn how to heal if your heals aren't necessary.

Fact 7. Dark knight has been in this state for a very long time.

Fact 8. My experience spans 3 expansions, over 14,000 hours of gameplay, savage clears on multiple jobs including dark knight, etc. While time invested is not a good enough measure of someone's skill, coupling it with the stuff accomplished in that time is.

Fact 9. The problem does not occur in Dawntrail content. The push is for dark knight to receive self sustain between levels 45 and 90.

What do we want from Square Enix?

1. Raw Intuition to become a tank role ability given to all tanks. It can be up for debate what level this should occur, but it should definitely be before Aurum Vale so that we can kill 2 birds with one stone. Aurum Vale is notorious for being a sprout killer and would be far less so if tanks could actually survive more than 4 mobs ontop of them in that dungeon. The trash mobs in the dungeon do a lot of damage, some have mini-tankbusters and it catches healers off guard more than it does tanks. So, give the tool to the players that are going to know how to use it.

2. Living Dead to become a normal invuln. This would reduce the text bloat within the tooltip and reduce ability layering.

3. TBN reworked.

[Masekase_Hurricane]

Time for another refocus.

Fact 1. Dark knights are having to use Living Dead as a last resort too many times in dungeons. I know this to be true because of my personal experience, both on the job and while leveling dps jobs.

Not really a fact when others in the thread are saying otherwise..

Fact 2. Living Dead is being griefed in every single one of these scenarios where it is being used AS A LAST RESORT BUTTON.

Again not a fact that people are intentionally griefing you

Fact 3. Dark knights should not be needing Living Dead at all in dungeons.

They dont lol

Fact 4. If dark knight had self sustain, this would not be a problem. Dark knight has zero self sustain and is apparently chopped liver to Square Enix when it comes to self sustain.

Different subject but sure it wouldn't hurt

Fact 5. It is not ALL healers doing this to dark knights, and it is not every single dungeon run as dark knight that Living Dead ends up being needed. Unfortunately, because of how rare it is for a healer to keep a dark knight alive in dungeons, it is impossible to conclude that there aren't healers out there doing this intentionally.

Was you that said it was needed by majority of healers FACT

Fact 6. Some of the healers doing this is a direct result of the other 3 tanks doing all the work for them. You can't learn how to heal if your heals aren't necessary.

Another one of your "facts"

Fact 7. Dark knight has been in this state for a very long time.

I wont argue there :P

Fact 8. My experience spans 3 expansions, over 14,000 hours of gameplay, savage clears on multiple jobs including dark knight, etc. While time invested is not a good enough measure of someone's skill, coupling it with the stuff accomplished in that time is.

Plenty of us can pull the oh I have X hours and done savage etc. Firstly this wasn't about savage as obviously every tank is going to use their oh shit skill at some point. Your point is in dungeons... P.S I have been here since 1.0 :P

Fact 9. The problem does not occur in Dawntrail content. The push is for dark knight to receive self sustain between levels 45 and 90.

Self sustain is a totally different subject see a different thread.

[Masekase_Hurricane]

Though, it’s worth mentioning that Living Dead is better than a Benediction if you manage to use it successfully. It’s designed to heal you for an amount equal to your max HP. It’s unfortunate that one of the most powerful tools in Dark Knight’s kit is stuck being treated as an “oh shit” button—one that usually isn’t even allowed to fulfill its purpose when used, at that. I do see why OP wishes they could use it.

I won''t argue that it's badly implemented and can easily be missed by healers, because at the end of the day we also have an oh shit skill :P But to say it's "always" used and healers are griefing Drks is just a load of crap.

Now on the other hand I will make my friend (war) and son (drk) squeal on Discord to see if they pop their skill before me :P

Also, “TBN reworked” just sounds awful when you don’t elaborate. I know you suggested adding a heal to it earlier in the thread, but that’s only because I went looking for that post.

In my opinion tacking on a heal or taking another classes skill is a crappy fix and shows no imagination. Give them Dread Spikes grants hp when mob hits you or Drain steal mobs hp putting you above hp cap both fit Drk better. But again that's a different thread :P

[ConantSivrha]

What do we want from Square Enix?

1. Raw Intuition to become a tank role ability given to all tanks. It can be up for debate what level this should occur, but it should definitely be before Aurum Vale so that we can kill 2 birds with one stone. Aurum Vale is notorious for being a sprout killer and would be far less so if tanks could actually survive more than 4 mobs ontop of them in that dungeon. The trash mobs in the dungeon do a lot of damage, some have mini-tankbusters and it catches healers off guard more than it does tanks. So, give the tool to the players that are going to know how to use it.

2. Living Dead to become a normal invuln. This would reduce the text bloat within the tooltip and reduce ability layering.

3. TBN reworked.

Framing this as a “we” thing seems a bit disingenuous.

If Living Dead was “a normal invuln”, it would be less interesting and weaker than it is currently. Looking at the other tanks invulns to help define what “a normal invuln” entails:
- Hollowed Ground (PLD) is the only “true invuln”, in that it stops you from taking damage entirely; Dark Knight is not going to get Hollowed Ground.
- Holmgang (WAR) stops you from going under 1 HP, so it’s similar to Living Dead, in that it doesn’t accomplish much if you never actually reach 1 HP.
- Superbolide (GNB) stops you from going under 1 HP, too—it also puts you at 1 HP instantly, which is the only reason why it technically doesn’t have the same issue as Living Dead and Holmgang. And, ultimately, there’s nothing there to stop the healer from healing you throughout the entire duration of Superbolide (or Holmgang) to invalidate its effect, if they really want to.

Additionally, the duration of every tank invuln that isn’t Living Dead is 10 seconds. Living Dead has 10 seconds to reach 1 HP, and 10 seconds of invuln and healing that starts once you reach 1 HP. Living Dead is not only stronger than Superbolide and Holmgang, but it also functionally has the longest duration of any invuln.

Can you honestly say you’d prefer Holmgang or Superbolide? I know I can’t. They’re perfectly capable of doing just as much nothing as a failed Living Dead use, while a successful use of Living Dead is better than anything offered by any other tank’s invuln, including Hollowed Ground. When you ask for “a normal invuln”, you are asking for a debuff! I cannot emphasize this enough.

Also, “TBN reworked” just sounds awful when you don’t elaborate. I know you suggested adding a heal to it earlier in the thread, but that’s only because I went looking for that post.

[Alice_Rivers]

"Patch Notes XX/XX/20XX:
Tanks:
Raw Intuition changed to role skill."

And thus does the coffin of the healer role in FF14 recieve it's final nail.

[Kyanari]

If I had to guess which of your proposed solutions would be preferred, it might end up being the latter actually to shut down heals while using your invuln. It might need to have a 50% max HP heal tagged on if it expires without you "dying" to make up for the heal shutdown. That way there is still a reason to try and keep the DRK damage higher than the WAR and PLD. Whether the patch addressed this issue for you or not we will see soon enough. One could make a point for DRK to be the highest DPS tank if they are to have the lowest defences compared to the others.

I was thinking maybe it'd be better like an Excog but at about 20－30％ of HP left instead of 50% since we already have Shadowed Vigil. I believe there was also a thread asking to shut down heals too when this is triggered like Hallowed Ground which I think is a good idea.

[FuwafuwaMii]

I'm more and more convinced this is a bait thread.

[AnjouMaaka]

Not really a fact when others in the thread are saying otherwise..



Again not a fact that people are intentionally griefing you



They dont lol



Different subject but sure it wouldn't hurt



Was you that said it was needed by majority of healers FACT




Another one of your "facts"




I wont argue there :P



Plenty of us can pull the oh I have X hours and done savage etc. Firstly this wasn't about savage as obviously every tank is going to use their oh shit skill at some point. Your point is in dungeons... P.S I have been here since 1.0 :P



Self sustain is a totally different subject see a different thread.

I bet you lied just as much to gaslight your parent into giving you whatever you wanted as a little kid.