Viper Changes are good, actually

[roach777]

"The low timer (20s) on noxious gash caused many vipers to fall into the bad habit of just rotating dread fangs combo to keep the debuff up instead of doing the better Steel Fangs starter for higher potency."

Okay, so there's a potency difference between a good Viper and a bad Viper that doesn't know to not overcap gnash, I fail to see how this is a bad thing.

Making double reawakenings very annoying and the theoretical triple reawakening a near impossibility.

Double reawaken only takes about 20s, not sure how that's annoying, and I fail to see how being able to now do a TRIPLE REAWAKENING makes the class more engaging.

It felt very VERY bad for a job whose primary draw was getting into a constant flowing rhythm.

If you're not in a constant flowing rhythm playing viper even with noxious gnash, then I think YOU might be the trash brainlessly spamming roulettes viper.

[AddictedToWitches]

If you're not in a constant flowing rhythm playing viper even with noxious gnash, then I think YOU might be the trash brainlessly spamming roulettes viper.

due to its low timer (20s) noxious gash was incredibly bad to maintain, the timer itself had an awkward duration
It was either extend noxious gash's timer, or get rid of it. I think getting rid of it was the best choice.
The intent behind the two combos was to rotate them anyway, now you actually do that instead of doing dread fangs once, steel fangs twice (during the downtime windows where that happens)
The theoretical triple reawakening is a bit of a meme but it allows more damage into a specific burst window you can use to line up with raids buffs.
Also double reawakening was pushing the dread fangs timer, note that unless you popped one dread fangs (not even the full combo) you'd still have not enough time to do two full reawakenings back to back. Tighter window than GNB's no mercy

[Lamarcy2699]

due to its low timer (20s) noxious gash was incredibly bad to maintain, the timer itself had an awkward duration
It was either extend noxious gash's timer, or get rid of it. I think getting rid of it was the best choice.
The intent behind the two combos was to rotate them anyway, now you actually do that instead of doing dread fangs once, steel fangs twice (during the downtime windows where that happens)
The theoretical triple reawakening is a bit of a meme but it allows more damage into a specific burst window you can use to line up with raids buffs.
Also double reawakening was pushing the dread fangs timer, note that unless you popped one dread fangs (not even the full combo) you'd still have not enough time to do two full reawakenings back to back. Tighter window than GNB's no mercy

No, it wasn't. You just sucked at the job. People who enjoyed how it was shouldn't suffer a boring job due to your incompetence.

[Lamarcy2699]

No, it wasn't. You just sucked at the job. People who enjoyed how it was shouldn't suffer a boring job due to your incompetence.

To also add to my own comment, if you REALLY struggle managing something (as in you're just physically incapable) then just take the damage loss. I'm not saying drop the buff entirely but if you struggled maintaining it then just do it to the best of your ability. There should always be a skill expressions that allows for people to show their competence at a job. I don't want the only difference between a competent and incompetent player at the same job to be just crit and maybe positionals since the job plays itself now. This goes for more things than FFXIV but if you truly struggle at something you really want to do then you should always either strive to do better, understand compromises for what you can/can't do, or accept that maybe this just isn't for you. Don't expect things to shape around what you can and cannot do and always try your fullest to improve and better yourself in areas you think you're lacking. If you never had an interest in it and only did it "just because" then maybe you shouldn't be talking about removing the fun those who do care about it are having.

[Zakon]

Okay, so there's a potency difference between a good Viper and a bad Viper that doesn't know to not overcap gnash, I fail to see how this is a bad thing.

There should be a potency difference between a good Viper and bad Viper anyway.

The most skilled Vipers will never lose an OGCD while also never drifting their GCD and also never getting hit by any boss mechanics while maintaining as much uptime as possible on the boss.

The less skilled Vipers will lose an OGCD, drift their GCD, or die to mechanics/fail to maintain uptime on the boss.

Viper is likely the most mechanically demanding job in the entire game. Even other jobs who need to double weave OGCDs like Machinist don't need to do it as frequently as Viper does, and failure to do so doesn't result in as much loss of potency. Machinist also has the benefit that they're a ranged DPS who doesn't need to worry about melee uptime. The tradeoff is that Viper's rotation is simple.

I already dropped the job because I know I don't have the dexterity to do what it needed me to do to play it optimally, I was already drifting my GCD on regular dungeon pulls trying to keep up with all of the mandatory double OGCD weaving.

[AlgernonBlackwood]

Even other jobs who need to double weave OGCDs like Machinist don't need to do it as frequently as Viper does

It gets 7 double weaves every 2 mins, 4 of which have extra long GCDs and all of which can be freely used at any point in the fight as long as you don't overcap. You press the same 2 buttons every time.

DRG has 6 consecutive forced double weaves in their 2 min + one extra long oGCD with animation lock, all on a normal 2.5 GCD. You press a total of 5-6 different buttons. Also, you're doing your 10-step GCD rotation at the same time.

Like, I'm not saying that Viper isn't somewhat mechanically demanding, it does have the highest APM in the game, it's just not nearly demanding enough relative to most of the other DPS to justify it's extremely simple rotation.

[Zakon]

It gets 7 double weaves every 2 mins, 4 of which have extra long GCDs and all of which can be freely used at any point in the fight as long as you don't overcap. You press the same 2 buttons every time.

DRG has 6 consecutive forced double weaves in their 2 min + one extra long oGCD with animation lock, all on a normal 2.5 GCD. You press a total of 5-6 different buttons. Also, you're doing your 10-step GCD rotation at the same time.

Like, I'm not saying that Viper isn't somewhat mechanically demanding, it does have the highest APM in the game, it's just not nearly demanding enough relative to most of the other DPS to justify it's extremely simple rotation.

I haven't played DRG to 100 yet, but are you sure those are forced double weaves in the same way Viper's is?

If you don't double weave as Viper, you straight up lose the ability. If you don't do it as DRG, you drift the OGCD's cooldown slightly but that's it. You also bring raid buffs as DRG where Viper does not.

Additionally, I was challenging the notion that there is no way to tell the difference between a good VPR and a bad VPR just because Noxious Gnash was lost. That is just incorrect.

[roach777]

There should be a potency difference between a good Viper and bad Viper anyway.

The most skilled Vipers will never lose an OGCD while also never drifting their GCD and also never getting hit by any boss mechanics while maintaining as much uptime as possible on the boss.

The less skilled Vipers will lose an OGCD, drift their GCD, or die to mechanics/fail to maintain uptime on the boss.

Viper is likely the most mechanically demanding job in the entire game. Even other jobs who need to double weave OGCDs like Machinist don't need to do it as frequently as Viper does, and failure to do so doesn't result in as much loss of potency. Machinist also has the benefit that they're a ranged DPS who doesn't need to worry about melee uptime. The tradeoff is that Viper's rotation is simple.

I already dropped the job because I know I don't have the dexterity to do what it needed me to do to play it optimally, I was already drifting my GCD on regular dungeon pulls trying to keep up with all of the mandatory double OGCD weaving.

I really don't think it is the most mechanically demanding job in the game. The OGCDs and the way the button swaps are designed is so elegant that even though on paper it has more button presses per min (not even by a lot by the way) it feels a lot less busy.

Also all those things you listed, how are those even Viper specific at all?
Good Vipers will get better DPS because they wont die to boss mechanics and have better uptime...
Yeah? This applies to every class in the game? Should every class only press 1 button and remove all rotational and job specific skill expression because there are already raid mechanics to express your skills in?

[Zakon]

I really don't think it is the most mechanically demanding job in the game. The OGCDs and the way the button swaps are designed is so elegant that even though on paper it has more button presses per min (not even by a lot by the way) it feels a lot less busy.

Also all those things you listed, how are those even Viper specific at all?
Good Vipers will get better DPS because they wont die to boss mechanics and have better uptime...
Yeah? This applies to every class in the game? Should every class only press 1 button and remove all rotational and job specific skill expression because there are already raid mechanics to express your skills in?

Viper is unique in that if you don't double weave you lose the ability.

I never said it doesn't apply to every class in the game, I was pointing out it's nonsense to say that there will be 0 difference between a good Viper and bad Viper now.

APM = mechanically demanding. If your job has a complex rotation but not a high APM requirement, it doesn't have mechanical difficulty, it has difficulty in the complexity of its rotation or in the decisions it has to make. Viper is the highest APM job in the game and it's also melee, which means it needs to maintain melee uptime on top of having the fastest buttons to press, which by necessity makes it the most mechanically demanding.