Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[CKNovel]

Nobody went on a healer strike over DRK, quite the opposite, people complained about healing DRK being annoying: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...d_to_heal_drk/

I also find it funny that the answer to your "who cares about optimising dungeons" is also: you, apparently.

Yeah? And we were a minority and figured it barely saved any time. What's your point, just trying to score something?
We just wanted to do cap before savage release, it's not like we did it on a weekly basis.

Healers went on a strike because every healer is spamming 1 and refreshing a dot. Healing isn't engaging, with or without warrior.
It could be a PLD, healer strike would've still happened.

But let's go back to the main topic, Warrior and its dungeon healing.
You know, the point I've seen no answer to it? That Paladin would simply replace Warrior and that the actual problem would remain unsolved?

[Terhix]

Yeah? And we were a minority and figured it barely saved any time. What's your point, just trying to score something?
We just wanted to do cap before savage release, it's not like we did it on a weekly basis.

Healers went on a strike because every healer is spamming 1 and refreshing a dot. Healing isn't engaging, with or without warrior.
It could be a PLD, healer strike would've still happened.

I need to preface this by saying I don't think you're doing or have done anything wrong. My point is you don't appear to particularly care about dungeon balance, but you do appear to have at least some interest in keeping Warrior in dungeon as it is - it's bias. Nothing particularly wrong with it, I have my own, though in my case I've leveled warrior to do casual content without healers in EW and got so bored with it I can't even bother leveling Warrior to 100.

But let's go back to the main topic, Warrior and its dungeon healing.
You know, the point I've seen no answer to it? That Paladin would simply replace Warrior and that the actual problem would remain unsolved?

If you are right, which you may very well be, then sure, there still will be a problem, but it will also be progress over the state of the game today. If both PLD and WAR are overtuned to varying degrees, the existence of PLD is not an argument against nerfing WAR. What that argument is is Whataboutism, a logical fallacy.

[CKNovel]

I need to preface this by saying I don't think you're doing or have done anything wrong. My point is you don't appear to particularly care about dungeon balance, but you do appear to have at least some interest in keeping Warrior in dungeon as it is - it's bias. Nothing particularly wrong with it, I have my own, though in my case I've leveled warrior to do casual content without healers in EW and got so bored with it I can't even bother leveling Warrior to 100.

The reason I want not to nerf Bloodwhetting is for multiple reasons:
-After nerfing bloowhetting, people would move on to another tank job to nerf.
-I want people to realize the actual issue, Bloodwhetting isn't the problem, it's the Healers that are boring as hell while waiting for something to heal and dungeons aren't engaging.
-Something overpowered in a content in which balance doesn't matter is good. More of this on other jobs and let people have fun.

If you are right, which you may very well be, then sure, there still will be a problem, but it will also be progress over the state of the game today. If both PLD and WAR are overtuned to varying degrees, the existence of PLD is not an argument against nerfing WAR. What that argument is is Whataboutism, a logical fallacy.

Okay mister fallacy, you're the one who brought, I quote:
"Running a dungeon with WAR and 3 dps isn't just possible, it is in fact the optimal way to do it."

To then I brought my counter-argument: PLD and GNB are also able to so similar things while being even more optimal for PLD.
That's not whataboutism or a fallacy since it's directly adressing Warrior capacity to do dungeons without a healer. My example, PLD and GNB, shares the same capacity.

It would've been whataboutism if I directly avoided the issue. For example, if I said "Why are you complaining about Warrior when Pictomancer can delete packs in dungeons?", because it shifts to another problem.

Again, you're just trying to score something.

[Terhix]

-After nerfing bloowhetting, people would move on to another tank job to nerf.
-I want people to realize the actual issue, Bloodwhetting isn't the problem, it's the Healers that are boring as hell while waiting for something to heal and dungeons aren't engaging.
-Something overpowered in a content in which balance doesn't matter is good. More of this on other jobs and let people have fun.

- Does not make bloodwhetting not overpowered.
- Does not make bloodwhetting not overpowered.
- That balance doesn't matter in dungeons is just your opinion, not fact. A job being overpowered being fun is also subjective, I don't find it fun.

In a nutshell: bloodwhetting is overpowered, you know it is overpowered, you just don't care.

[CKNovel]

In a nutshell: bloodwhetting is overpowered, you know it is overpowered, you just don't care.

I need to preface this by saying I don't think you're doing or have done anything wrong. My point is you don't appear to particularly care about dungeon balance, but you do appear to have at least some interest in keeping Warrior in dungeon as it is - it's bias.

Pick one.
I can't have a bias/appear to have some interest and not be caring.

[Terhix]

Pick one.
I can't have a bias/appear to have some interest and not be caring.

You like bloodwhetting at current power level because to you it is fun (bias), and you also self-admittedly don't care about balance in dungeons ergo don't care that it is overpowered. Am I wrong?

[CKNovel]

You like bloodwhetting at current power level because to you it is fun (bias), and you also self-admittedly don't care about balance in dungeons ergo don't care that it is overpowered. Am I wrong?

Incorrect.

I don't "like" or "hate" bloowhetting, I've already told you my point was to make players understand that nerfing Bloodwhetting won't solve the root problem.
I'm not even a Warrior main and you can easily check this information, I like the DT iteration but not for Bloodwhetting, otherwise I would have liked EW Warrior.

I do care about dungeon balance, have you missed all my posts about wanting to increase the damage received by the whole party? How I want dungeons to be actual tutorials?
I'm simply against the nerf mentality accusing Bloodwhetting of all the Healer's suffering.

Do you still want to make this about me? Why don't we go back to the actual topic?

[Shurrikhan]

The reason I want not to nerf Bloodwhetting is for multiple reasons:
-After nerfing bloowhetting, people would move on to another tank job to nerf.

I'm fine with that. With sufficient gradual polish that puts tank capacities under scaling that better simultaneously fit casual and harder content (and, ideally, thereby allows for more skill expression), we might finally get more engaging tanking, both in itself (for not being so overtuned relative to content) and as it impacts surrounding play.

-I want people to realize the actual issue, Bloodwhetting isn't the problem, it's the Healers that are boring as hell while waiting for something to heal and dungeons aren't engaging.

Those aren't mutually exclusive, and of the two, the second is already getting the more discussion, by a huge margin.

-Something overpowered in a content in which balance doesn't matter is good. More of this on other jobs and let people have fun.

No, it's not. It makes that content more dull for those who are overpowered and increasingly grindy for anyone who isn't.

Each job having some area in which they far outstrip the others is good only if there's still net parity overall; otherwise, job choice increasingly dwindles down to Overpowered Job and Everyone Else.

To then I brought my counter-argument: PLD and GNB are also able to so similar things while being even more optimal for PLD.

Which doesn't even counter the argument. That X is possible on other jobs does not disprove that a given job is significantly advantaged, let alone that there is no detriment to the larger game from its being so advantaged.

It would've been whataboutism if I directly avoided the issue.

The only reason it isn't wholly a whataboutism is because it wasn't even a direct response.

• Others: "X is overpowered, to the subtle but noticeable detriment of gameplay for itself and far more noticeably for others."
  
  
• Your response: "Other options, too, are viable. Do you want to nerf them too?!!"

[CKNovel]

There is one thing you still have not clarified though, and if you don't mind I'd like a straight answer: is Bloodwhetting overpowered in dungeons?

I've already adressed that specific point.
Yes, it is overpowered and that's fine, it doesn't hurts the game. You need a specific content and specific scenario to have Bloodwhetting overpowered. Ironically we've had dungeons where the Warrior couldn't massively pull and was limited to 3 targets. Was Bloodwhetting broken there?
Balance doesn't matter in dungeons but you still need to make them engaging. Focusing on nerfing Bloodwhetting won't make them more engaging, you can keep Bloodwhetting as it is for job fantasy while making dungeons entertaining for everyone. Many people already discussed taking the criterion approach.

[*]Your response: "Other options, too, are viable. Do you want to nerf them too?!!"[/LIST]

"Other options can do similar performance, even if we happen to nerf them. We shouldn't slow down every car because the road uses bad materials, we should improve the road."

Using Paladin as an example is meant to show that even if Bloodwhetting was nerfed, Paladin would simply take its place because it can do the exact same things. And if you nerf Paladin, then Gunbreaker can take its place. The actors aren't the problem, it's the scene, dungeons are dull by default.

Whataboutism is deflecting a concern by bringing another unrelated concern.
"Concern A is important and should be the focus!" "But what about Concern B!"
But I'm still focusing on the same concern A, Warrior and Paladin are part of the same context (job balance), I don't avoid Warrior discussion and I compare it with Paladin, still adressing the original concern.

[aiqa]

Other options can do similar performance

Other jobs are not similar. PLD healing+mitigation is closer to GNB than WAR is to PLD.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount

And sure, PLD should be toned down a bit too. In particular Divine Veil is far to strong.