Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

[Voidmage]

Frankly I think Gulool Jaja is a bad character, up there with Wuk Lamat or even worse.

He seems to be a bad father given how one dimension all 3 of his characters are. But ... is he even a good ruler.

The most baffling aspect about his rule is the story of the Mamook Ja ... you know ... his own people?

So the Mamook Ja was so desperated that they decided to dig a tunnel through the mountain and committed to a bloody war to a better life.

Gulool Jaja appeared, give them a meal and just tell them to go home. Yay, great ruler!!

But from what we see, he literally did NOTHING to address the concern or the root cause of the war during the 80 years of his rule

The Mamook Ja was still suffering, was still desperate. Probably even more so than before.

I hate the story as much as any here but hard disagree.

Gulool JaJa was neither a bad character nor was he a bad father.

He is one of the few characters in the story that actually FEELS like a character and not just a walking trope or plot devise.

It's also clear he was a good father to his children. None of them hated that part about him, not even Zoraal Ja and he clearly only had the best for Tural in mind.

The Mamook Ja thing is kinda stupid yes but there are actually two things to consider.
Gulool JaJa was a leader and the probably had the first half of his reign his hand full of actually making a city that doesn't kill each other.
Let's also remember that those guys chose to stay behind and suffer.

The whole Mamool ja stuff was first and foremost attrocious writing with them not even bothering trying differnent crops or something else.
They could also have just raised animals and traded the rest if they wanted to.
It's pretty clear their suffering at least is half self induced.

[Raven2014]

Gulool JaJa was neither a bad character nor was he a bad father.

He's bad in the same sense of most other DT's character is bad, the narrative barely tell us anything about them. We know he was a strong and wise character which demonstrated through his feast. But how was he as a ruler, we have a 80 years gap with literally nothing to fill.

He is one of the few characters in the story that actually FEELS like a character and not just a walking trope or plot devise.

First, I think that's because he's actually pretty empty. Second I also disagree about he's not a trope, he's actually one of the VERY typical one. The super-cool character who is also designed to die to either make room for or push the rest of the cast. Top of my heads let's see ... Duncan from Dragon Age Origin, Mother Queen from Suikoden 5, Jeralt from Fire Emblem Three Houses, General Ouki from Kingdom, and a lot more. Seriously, he's the type of character that after 2 interaction I was like "yep, this guy gonna die, soon".

Here is one of your (J)RPG 101: if the parents of an important character appear in the same story, there is a good chance the parents are there to die. And the cooler the parents, the higher the chance of that happening. It's very old formula.

It's also clear he was a good father to his children. None of them hated that part about him, not even Zoraal Ja and he clearly only had the best for Tural in mind.

I know quite a few "children" who love their parents very much, whether they're well adjusted individual though ... I don't think the metric you're using are accurate nor reliable.

Gulool JaJa was a leader and the probably had the first half of his reign his hand full of actually making a city that doesn't kill each other.

I'm not gonna say you're wrong but you don't know that it's true either. And this is the problem, we're trying to fill the gap with conjecture because the narrative doesn't tell us anything.

The whole Mamool ja stuff was first and foremost attrocious writing with them not even bothering trying differnent crops or something else.
They could also have just raised animals and traded the rest if they wanted to.
It's pretty clear their suffering at least is half self induced.

The worst part of this is how "laughable easy" we were able to solve this 80+ years issue when we arrived. Gulool Ja Ja reached out to the Krile's grand father while Konoa essentially went for a full scholarship, this show they're well connected and aware of the Sharyaland capability. His right hand man stayed in that forest for 80 years, and were a world renown seasonal adventure ... and you tell absolutely no one were able to come up with such a simple and obvious solution? The whole super baby thing is like jumping to the letter Z to solve the issue while ignoring all the ABC before that.

Also you can read Papayatar's reply right above for further explanation why this story is a really bad reflection on Gulool Ja Ja

[Voidmage]

He's bad in the same sense of most other DT's character is bad, the narrative barely tell us anything about them. We know he was a strong and wise character which demonstrated through his feast. But how was he as a ruler, we have a 80 years gap with literally nothing to fill.

You are correct that we aren't told that outright but that is one of the few times that's actually not wrong in my opinion.
We can just look at all the people there. None are unhappy, the borders to other continents were opened and he installed a big Aether crystal network.
His rule seems to be full of building up a peacefull town, safe country and technology where it benefits the people.

If anything I would say we know more about his rule then about him being a father.

First, I think that's because he's actually pretty empty. Second I also disagree about he's not a trope, he's actually one of the VERY typical one. The super-cool character who is also designed to die to either make room for or push the rest of the cast. Top of my heads let's see ... Duncan from Dragon Age Origin, Mother Queen from Suikoden 5, Jeralt from Fire Emblem Three Houses, General Ouki from Kingdom, and a lot more. Seriously, he's the type of character that after 2 interaction I was like "yep, this guy gonna die, soon".

Here is one of your (J)RPG 101: if the parents of an important character appear in the same story, there is a good chance the parents are there to die. And the cooler the parents, the higher the chance of that happening. It's very old formula.

Nono, you missunderstand me. I'm not saying he as no tropes. I'm saying he deosn't feel like it.
Yes he is the cool old dude trope like you mentioned but he is actually more then that like in my first point.
He was a good ruler and a father who loved his children besides trying his best to make a new dawnservant.
He also was someone who was not afraid to use his strenght to unify people but also knew when to talk things out.
That's not just one single trope.

On your examples:
Duncan was actually far deeper then that and kinda dark with his "grey wardens first" approach and Queen Arshtat was a loving mother who was manipulated by the sun rune. Both are far more then their tropes because they use those to make the character liek Gulool JaJa.
I agree on Jeralt though (hate three houses anyway). A better example would have been Ikes father in my opinion.
Those characters were not defined by their death but by their way to it and what they left behind after it.

I know quite a few "children" who love their parents very much, whether they're well adjusted individual though ... I don't think the metric you're using are accurate nor reliable.

Sorry but this here I don't understand.
You are using psychological problems here. Gulool JaJa was absolutely not an abusing parent or something. He clearly had the best interest of his children in mind and was even as only the head of resolve the most level headed character in the entire story with a bit of "I like to fight strong oponents".

I'm not gonna say you're wrong but you don't know that it's true either. And this is the problem, we're trying to fill the gap with conjecture because the narrative doesn't tell us anything.

Of course not. It's all just a theory because the writing sucks in DT and doesn't tell us anything but so is the whole debate about Gulool JaJas character.

The worst part of this is how "laughable easy" we were able to solve this 80+ years issue when we arrived. Gulool Ja Ja reached out to the Krile's grand father while Konoa essentially went for a full scholarship, this show they're well connected and aware of the Sharyaland capability. His right hand man stayed in that forest for 80 years, and were a world renown seasonal adventure ... and you tell absolutely no one were able to come up with such a simple and obvious solution? The whole super baby thing is like jumping to the letter Z to solve the issue while ignoring all the ABC before that.

I completely agree with you here.

Also you can read Papayatar's reply right above for further explanation why this story is a really bad reflection on Gulool Ja Ja

I know I just don't reply to everything, I don't even disagree on him having made mistakes or wrong turns.
I just harshly disagree on the notion that he was a bad ruler and bad parent because both things are told to us by the characters ingame to not be true.

[Raven2014]

Nono, you missunderstand me. I'm not saying he as no tropes. I'm saying he deosn't feel like it.

The point is he IS one, and he certainly felt like one to me. Because these characters only have limited amount of time and because they must 'cause some soft impact that the players can feel or related to, they're often given very strong first impression. What you are describing isn't the trope, just different examples of how the trope is used. The existence of these characters, they are the trope themselves. Gulool Ja Ja pretty much followed this formula to a T.

Sorry but this here I don't understand.
You are using psychological problems here. Gulool JaJa was absolutely not an abusing parent or something.

That's not what I'm saying. Say if you have a parents that spoiled their kids rotten, it's very likely the kids will see the parents as the world to them ... but if that's all to it ... that's not good parenting isn't? The point is, good parenting isn't just about making sure the kids love and respect you, but also making sure they grow up well adjusted and well prepared for the challenge that will await them. And I'm sorry, there is no way Gulool Ja Ja would earn a passing mark for the second part.

- If he had planned for the children to success him, shouldn't he started prepare them for that like ... years ago?

- The rite of succession should be like the graduation exam for the children ability to rule, not their FIRST lesson to kingship.

- Wuk and Koana were completely oblivious to most of the land culture and history, while Zoraal Ja suffered a depression so deep it turned into a delusion. (I don't believe Zoraal Ja ever care about his people, his belief in war is basically a way for him to cope with his depression).


And the worst part ... just like the Maamo Ja's story, Gulool Ja ja know about this. The scene after our duel where he admit that none of his children are ready, then declare "well if they're not ready after this I'll just kick their arse and continue to rule muahahaha" triggered me. Now I'm pretty sure the writers thought this scene make him look cool and badarse - which is what they're trying to do with character of this trope. But I was like ... you know they are your children right? If none of them are ready to rule ... whose fault you think that is? So why do you act like it's not your problem!?!?b I'm sorry, the callousness of this scene ensure there is no way anyone can convince me Gulool Ja ja is a good parents.

You know we actually have a pretty close comparison to Gulool Ja Ja. I presented to you ... G'raha. You actually can draw a lot parallel between Gulool Ja Ja's rule and G'raha in the first:

- They are both savior and united their people.

- They both usher the population into a period of stability and prosperity.

- We enter their story at the tail end of their rule.

- G'raha also had an adoptive (grand)daughter, Lyna.

We also didn't see much of direct rulership from G'raha but unlike Gulool, we actually got enough exposition to get a good idea about it. G'raha made sure to set up the structure and organizations of the Crystarium in a way that they are ready for his eventual departure. Comparing that to Gulool's last minute search for a successor and ... well?

I don't think I need to describe how beautifully and masterfully crafted the dynamic between Lyna and G'raha? The fact that Gulool Ja Ja have THREE children yet the story manage to give us almost zero exposition on this kind of dynamic is ... kinda amazing really.

It really just show the gap between the writing of DT and previous expansion. And as a I had expressed before (in another thread), I'm someone who always tie the characters to their writing. So bad writing = bad characters, as simple as that.

[Voidmage]

Strong writing

Did I defend the writing anywhere? No.
I know it's crap and that scene is the best example of it because it goes completely against his established character.

The point is he IS one, and he certainly felt like one to me. Because these characters only have limited amount of time and because they must 'cause some soft impact that the players can feel or related to, they're often given very strong first impression. What you are describing isn't the trope, just different examples of how the trope is used. The existence of these characters, they are the trope themselves. Gulool Ja Ja pretty much followed this formula to a T.

Again, I don't disagree that he is a trope or that the other characters are that but that it is used in a correct way.
Every single character in this game is one trope and a little bit of others next to it nothing more.
He isn't more of a walking trope then the scions are.

That's not what I'm saying. Say if you have a parents that spoiled their kids rotten, it's very likely the kids will see the parents as the world to them ... but if that's all to it ... that's not good parenting isn't? The point is, good parenting isn't just about making sure the kids love and respect you, but also making sure they grow up well adjusted and well prepared for the challenge that will await them. And I'm sorry, there is no way Gulool Ja Ja would earn a passing mark for the second part.

No, parenting is a complex thing in itself. You can be a perfect parent and still have kids that do things in a way that is not good.
But that's not my point.
You all go around saying he was a bad father with your theories when even the game makes it clear that he was anything like that.
Two of his children clearly loved him and the third wanted to prove himself to get out of his status as miracle. That was his own complex. His father probably could have told him that he is great and all and Zarool Ja would still have his complex because that's his personality.
I agree that there was obious favourism regarding Wuk Lamat from her father but that's a problem with the writing because all ingame text from other people suggests otherwise.

We can't use every shortcoming of the three children and say "yeah that's the fault of their father". They are their own people, they are adults.

On the whole G'raha Tia thing.
Again, you just list things I agree with. The writing is bad, not the character himself.
If the roles where switched we wouldn't even be talking about Gulool JaJa.


Anyway the likes on the comments show that I'm more or less alone with my standpoint so whatever. You all do you. I said what I wanted to say.
If you want to see Gulool JaJa as a horrible parent and ruler I don't mind. That's your opinion and I won't change mine.

All I'm saying at the end is:
DT story writing was bad and I hate it, but even there a few good things can be found.

[Trevski]

Again, I don't disagree that he is a trope or that the other characters are that but that it is used in a correct way.
Every single character in this game is one trope and a little bit of others next to it nothing more.
He isn't more of a walking trope then the scions are.

Archetypal characters (or "trope" characters...) are perfectly fine and valid to use in writing. Sometimes it's useful to use as a shortcut to get across a character's personality, other times it's the starting point for a more interesting story.

Urianger is an academic's academic. Very close to the 'Absent Minded Professor' archetype. But the game takes those traits of him being too academic, too technical and does some engaging stuff with it (ie, the whole subplot with Moenbryda.)