2 melee 2 ranged standard

[Ramiee]

Just curious what people think about this being the standard for DPS set up in hard content.
Wanna know if people think this should remain the rigid standard that never changes or DPS in comps can be more, more melee or more casters or more phys or whatever you think.

Me personally, I think it's okay as a standard but some people take it too rigidly, sometimes 2 casters 1 melee and 1 Phys ranged can be really good. Reminds me of the standard for pure and barrier healer, really you can bring both of the sub role.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

There used to be comps that dropped casters entirely early Stormblood with DRG-NIN-BRD-MCH and on certain fights people even ran triple melee. Double caster or double phys ranged with a single melee was also viable, but generally it meant not mixing SMN and RDM, both in damage numbers and buff synergy.

Double melee will remain supreme as long as the damage numbers remain melee-favoured. Right know I can see Pictomancer play in a pseudo melee position, especially if BLM gets sufficient buffs to damage on tuesday, allowing for double caster (high damage). You can also bring RDM or SMN in place of BLM for prog if you favour a caster raise.

Long story short, it's all about damage first, utility second and ranged advantage third. If double melee has no spacing or uptime struggles and keep the numbers high, it will remain meta.

[Lyth]

It's a bad idea from a fight design standpoint. 2/2/2/2 design is built around the idea that there are going to be four jobs that are obligate melee ranged, so you're constrained to resolve mechanics in a way that let four players maintain contact with the boss. If you add in an additional ranged as 'fake melee', then they can be off in another arena while the remaining three melee range jobs have comfy access to the boss. You're essentially bypassing constraints that designers can place on mechanics.

I also think that the current treatment of magical and physical ranged as 'separate roles' grows more superfluous with each passing expansion. PCT is highly mobile, lacks MP dependence, and comes with its own raidwide mitigation. They could have designated this as a physical ranged job if they wanted to. If physical ranged jobs automatically do less damage than magical ranged without even offering raise, it becomes hard to see the value in the role. They should probably abolish the requirement for one distinct magical ranged and one distinct physical ranged at this point and treat it as a single role with two slots.

I wonder if the long-term goal is for double caster to replace the physical ranged requirement.

[Ramiee]

There used to be comps that dropped casters entirely early Stormblood with DRG-NIN-BRD-MCH and on certain fights people even ran triple melee. Double caster or double phys ranged with a single melee was also viable, but generally it meant not mixing SMN and RDM, both in damage numbers and buff synergy.

Vaguely remember triple melee in SB but don't remember the other comps. But yeah I agree damage takes priority over everything for comps.

[rewd]

PCT is highly mobile, lacks MP dependence, and comes with its own raidwide mitigation. They could have designated this as a physical ranged job if they wanted to.

This forum has the most insane takes on caster jobs, it's crazy.

[W00by]

Would you like to give some evidence for why you feel that this Picto take is insane? Smudge is among the best mobility skills in the game, and Swiftcast + Hammer Motif + Hammer Muse + Hammer Combo is an incredibly strong mobility resource that the Picto can move around between burst phases on the odd minute. Swiftcast + Motif in general is a stronger Swiftcast option than certain other hard casters have. I, too, think PCT is highly mobile when played at a high level.

[Supersnow845]

Would you like to give some evidence for why you feel that this Picto take is insane? Smudge is among the best mobility skills in the game, and Swiftcast + Hammer Motif + Hammer Muse + Hammer Combo is an incredibly strong mobility resource that the Picto can move around between burst phases on the odd minute. Swiftcast + Motif in general is a stronger Swiftcast option than certain other hard casters have. I, too, think PCT is highly mobile when played at a high level.

The fact that PCT and BLM have far wider IQR’s than the melee indicates that people struggle much more to maximise their uptime compared to the melee

[W00by]

I don't disagree that there is a struggle for the majority of players when compared to melee, that's not what I mean at all.

I simply mean when all tools are used properly, Picto has a very high control over when to use its longest cast times and super strong mobility skills beyond that. Just because people aren't using them necessarily doesn't mean they aren't there.

[Supersnow845]

I don't disagree that there is a struggle for the majority of players when compared to melee, that's not what I mean at all.

I simply mean when all tools are used properly, Picto has a very high control over when to use its longest cast times and super strong mobility skills beyond that. Just because people aren't using them necessarily doesn't mean they aren't there.

I mean you have to balance around what people actually do, not the theoretical perfect player

I agree PCT has a lot of mobility if you know how to use it, but saying it’s mobile by default when it has an IQR like that just isn’t representative of how the playerbase plays it, it’s more mobile than BLM but it’s basically just another “hahahaha healers adjust I’m stuck in my leylines” when BLM also has mobility tools

[W00by]

I fundamentally disagree that you have to balance around what people actually do without considering the high end at all.

If you were to, say, buff PCT's mobility right now because the majority of players struggle with using that mobility, then it would become insanely overpowered at the highest level. People already agree that it is definitely the strongest caster in the game, and in contention for the strongest job in the game. You simply cannot ignore the tools in the job when discussing how to design it.

Picto is absolutely inundated with mobility skills. Holy can be stockpiled at only a small DPS loss, the aforementioned hammer motif mobility combo is incredibly strong (without costing potential DPS the way RDM or BLM using melee combo/triple cast for mobility can), Smudge can be weaved after any casted GCD with either no uptime drop even on the CYM combo, and Comet, Prism, and the burst Hammer combo keep it moving even during 2 minutes.

Your suggestion indicates that for most players, this is not enough and PCT needs even more mobility skills, or perhaps damage buffs to make up for having "low mobility" (which is not true). But that would absolutely destroy raiding balance in perpetuity. The casual player base and hardcore player base exist at the same time, and there's nothing we can do to change that but acknowledge the facts. And, factually, PCT has more mobility skills than its caster kin (with the exception of the obvious Summoner).