Is this a plothole? Question about the Endless

[Lady_Silvermoon]

That's why Otis is the biggest ... let's just say - problem - with the writing. Whatever that 'problem' is (bad writing, incosistent, plot hole) will change from PoV to PoV, but it is a problem. Just copy and pasted my take on this about a month ago about it:


If anyone still hold onto the idea the Endless should be treat as real people and what we did at the end has a case to be argue for genocide, I have one character would invalidate the validity: Otis.

First, the idea of digitalize human is not exactly a new or unexplored concept, but for the viewer/player to treat the projection as real people, the writing usually have to include some underwriting to make the memory unique in certain way. One that pop into my head right away is the anime Zegapain. Humanity got wiped out with a decease, and have to live inside virtual world. However, because it's a lot of data to replicate an authentic version, each person only have one copy stored in a quantum state. The data can be transfer between terminal, but it's always have to be the whole package. If the data is corrupted or damage, the "person" will suffer something akin to sickness. If its host terminal is destroyed, the data is gone forever - aka death.

Second, look at the fact that there are two Otis existing at the same time, for me basically render any argument that can be had about the Endless as real person moot. Because it shows that what we see is indeed, nothing more than data that can be procreate at will because they are not unique. Otherwise, if I kill one Otis it's the murder of one person, but if the system simulate 10 Otis, does that mean i committed murder ten times?

Otis is the only evidence that Cahcuia isn't just lying to us. Besides Otis and Erenville's comment, everything else points to us dissipating 1/3rd of what the FF14 universe considers a living person, and every argument that it's acceptable reminds us that we condemned the Ascians for doing the same to what they considered 1/14th of a living person.

The problem isn't that Otis exists. The problem is that Otis exists AND we're told this is the actual memory aether of the actual people and while those people are acting exactly the same way they did in life, downstairs souls are being used as currency, which brings into question if the thing in the vending machine downstairs Cahcuia or the thing gleeful to see her son after so long is Cahcuia. Most people would point to the squealing bunny woman as "the real" Cahcuia and not the white cube in someone's headgear. And that's a problem given what they are trying to sell us on.

[Raven2014]

snip

If you ask me WHICH version of the Endless presentation I prefer, than Mechanical Otis is far superior than the zone 6 Endless. But like I said, his existence kinda just invalidate all the sentimental strings that zone 6 tried to pull. It would also a real condominium for us because it's much easier to make the argument that mechanical Otis is a actual life form and not just a memory.


Now, if I'm going out my limb to give the writers the benefit of the doubt, there is an alternative way to interpret the Endless that is consistent with both of what Cahcuia trying to say, as well as the intention of the last zone. And that is it's based on 3 school of thought:


- First: believe in the after life. Proper burial, ceremonies, rite ...etc... Because the belief is this is the duty of the living, we're doing this so the dead can have a good afterlife, we're doing this to honor "them". And this can get really extreme, I know (poor) families that would get into debt in order to have a proper burial. The Endless could be a reflection of this mindset.

- Second: dead is dead, keep them in memory but the living move on. There is no after life, and all the expensive expectation are just social construct designed to exploit the living - aka the Grief industry. And this correlate to the unsustainable in maintaining the illusion paradise for the Endless at great cost to the living.

- Third: a mixed of the first two. They don't necessary believe in the afterlife, but they don't outright dismiss things like rites and ceremonies either. The difference between the first and third is instead of believing you're doing things for the death, you're doing for the shake of the living. It's not about science, logic or rationality. Human are emotional creatures, and we need closure. It's ok to do something and give it meaning as a way to cope, even if it's probably meaningless. And I think this is the quest line in Zone 6 is about. On the surface the narrative framed it as we're doing for the Endless, to pay them one last homemade. But it could be we (the party) doing it for themselves, so we don't feel bad when we shut them down. Krile's encounter with her parents isn't about her parents, they're already dead, the illusion is not real. But Krile herself desperately needed that encounter to find peace and closure.


So if you decide to look at this way ... most of the story points come together pretty well with very little inconsistency and contradiction. It's actually ... good writing, abeit the message is hidden bit ... too well. The inconsistency is not really inconsistency, rather just illustration of different view points of how the living perceive the death. But alas I don't know whether this is real intention of the writers, or I'm just reading into it a bit too much. I'll be honest, it's kinda hard to accept it's the former case because then you have to wonder: if this is the level of writing the team actually is actually capable of ... then what the hell happened in the first 5 zones?!?!

[Steelpapercranes]

If you ask me WHICH version of the Endless presentation I prefer, than Mechanical Otis is far superior than the zone 6 Endless. But like I said, his existence kinda just invalidate all the sentimental strings that zone 6 tried to pull. It would also a real condominium for us because it's much easier to make the argument that mechanical Otis is a actual life form and not just a memory.

This is my personal theory as to why mecha-Otis was killed so suddenly and so pointlessly. If we had 'living' Otis exist at the same time as 'Endless' Otis (well, they DID exist at the same time for like 400 years but I guess they want us to think about it), it would kind of make it unacceptably clear how what they're going for emotionally in living memory is NOT what's happening lol. They had to make sure he wasn't around in the hopes that we just wouldn't think that hard about it.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

This is my personal theory as to why mecha-Otis was killed so suddenly and so pointlessly. If we had 'living' Otis exist at the same time as 'Endless' Otis (well, they DID exist at the same time for like 400 years but I guess they want us to think about it), it would kind of make it unacceptably clear how what they're going for emotionally in living memory is NOT what's happening lol. They had to make sure he wasn't around in the hopes that we just wouldn't think that hard about it.

It also begs the question why they went with the Endless that require an ever increasing amount of aether that would eventually destroy all life in the universe, when they stumbled upon putting minds and souls into machines first. That along with hologram tech make their chosen solution which confines the Endless in one place and destroys the universe, extra stupid. They basically invented their own version of the Omicron, tossed out that idea and went with a paperclip paradox instead. WHY?

[Raven2014]

This is my personal theory as to why mecha-Otis was killed so suddenly and so pointlessly. If we had 'living' Otis exist at the same time as 'Endless' Otis (well, they DID exist at the same time for like 400 years but I guess they want us to think about it), it would kind of make it unacceptably clear how what they're going for emotionally in living memory is NOT what's happening lol. They had to make sure he wasn't around in the hopes that we just wouldn't think that hard about it.

It also begs the question why they went with the Endless that require an ever increasing amount of aether that would eventually destroy all life in the universe, when they stumbled upon putting minds and souls into machines first. That along with hologram tech make their chosen solution which confines the Endless in one place and destroys the universe, extra stupid. They basically invented their own version of the Omicron, tossed out that idea and went with a paperclip paradox instead. WHY?

Given the fact Mechanical Otis had no problem sustained himself for 400+ years, it does lend credential to the theory the writers realize they had to kill him off for anything in Zone 6 to make sense.


In a way, it's kinda like how Walt Disney wanted to side line Luke in StarWar so they can tell their own story instead.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Given the fact Mechanical Otis had no problem sustained himself for 400+ years, it does lend credential to the theory the writers realize they had to kill him off for anything in Zone 6 to make sense.


In a way, it's kinda like how Walt Disney wanted to side line Luke in StarWar so they can tell their own story instead.

Even then it doesn't make sense because regulators exist and from Sphene's wording it makes it sound like the new MACHINES have regulators. Why would that be the case? But because that's the case that means even if you put memories and souls in machines, if you give those machines regulators you can just put them in new machines if that machine breaks down. These idiots have already figured out a less stupid path to immortality yet went with the method that literally destroys all life instead. WHY?!

Sorry, this turned into a bit of a rant.

You have every right to rant. You paid $40 for this slop.

It's not about "letting go". It's about Legacy.
All the themes were about different approaches over the theme "legacy". The expectation to uphold it, the dismissal of it, the ignorance that comes from it, the status quo of preserving it, the burden of carrying it.

Erenville was indeed a sad moment, it was basically plugging his mom from life support. It was the right thing to do, but devastating for him for sure.

While I agree they tried to write a story about legacy, what we got was a bunch of trash parents dumping their baggage onto kids they failed to properly raise.

[OMGJesuis66]

While I agree they tried to write a story about legacy, what we got was a bunch of trash parents dumping their baggage onto kids they failed to properly raise.

So... An accurate Real Life worthy story? LOL

[Lady_Silvermoon]

So... An accurate Real Life worthy story? LOL

True. Though I'm usually not charged $40 bucks to watch and I'm definitely not told this is a good thing actually. "Sure you spent the first 22 years of your life in tears begging your mom not to leave as she dumped you off on some random lady to have a good time with the boys. But now she's dead so dedicate the next 275 years of your life trying to fulfill her dreams."

She's one of the most popular characters in the expansion and I wanted to a way to bring her back just so I could delete her again.

The entire point of Alexandria is not just preserving their memories but also keep them living their best lives without ever knowing loss. They even show that the system conspires to reunite loved ones and even keep your image similar to what you looked like when you're at your happiest. It was never about immortality for immortality's sake.
*snip*

They had entire armies of machines. And did they say the robots are made of electrope? Even if they are they have tons of them. And if they have holograms and your thinking, feeling, loved one could remain by your side after death in a robot, wouldn't that be a world without loss? It'd even make more sense towards their goals than deleting swaths of people's memories (which should have changed their personality) and creating a system that was obviously doomed to fail from lack of resources.

And robo-Otis seemed to have a pretty meaningful life. He raised a kid. Are you saying the only way to having a meaningful life is to be a sundered biological being? And even if they came to the conclusion the only meaningful life was that in a physical body, then they could have worked on cloning, that coupled with the regulators again solves the issue and gets them what they want in the long-term unlike their method which ends the universe. If she's a program, shouldn't she have glitched out knowing her primary function was impossible? It reminds me of War Games where at the end the AI realizes that there is no win scenario available and decides to play chess instead.

There is no "they", and the Endless is not "living". They're simulated data with their soul been tripped and become a commodity long times ago. *snip*

Yes, that is one of two interpretations and I don't blame you for holding it as it is stated and supported with evidence as is the alternative read. After all, why am I dressing up like a bunny to give child exhibits 'happy memories'?

[Ririta]

Even then it doesn't make sense because regulators exist and from Sphene's wording it makes it sound like the new MACHINES have regulators. Why would that be the case? But because that's the case that means even if you put memories and souls in machines, if you give those machines regulators you can just put them in new machines if that machine breaks down. These idiots have already figured out a less stupid path to immortality yet went with the method that literally destroys all life instead. WHY?!

The entire point of Alexandria is not just preserving their memories but also keep them living their best lives without ever knowing loss. They even show that the system conspires to reunite loved ones and even keep your image similar to what you looked like when you're at your happiest. It was never about immortality for immortality's sake.

You yourself mentioned the omicron, who themselves admit that they don't know if they're even human and are very destroyable. Are alexandrians idiots for choosing to not be something that we already know doesn't work nor leads to happiness?

Plus, "just put them into new machines" wouldn't even be possible given enough time.

Electrope scarcity and the following war between nations was exactly what triggered Lindblum to launch the weapon that caused the calamity. Given enough time this idea of stuffing people into machines (as if they were things) would fail just as bad as the endless.

[Raven2014]

There is no "they", and the Endless is not "living". They're simulated data with their soul been tripped and become a commodity long times ago.

In a way, the last zone is basically just a futuristic and advanced museum. Now if someone vandalize or burn down a museum, I might be upset at the histocal value that is lost. But it's kinda idiotic for for the story to implies burning down pictures in museum is similar to murder real living people.

And frankly? It may works if the writers had the skill for it. In my experience there are only two (game) writers that have the skill to pull a convoluted storyboard out of their arse and make them compelling/interesting: Hideo Kojima and Yoko Taro. If those two are masters, the writers of DT are not skill enough to be even their apprentices.