Is this a plothole? Question about the Endless

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Why can't it be a little of both? You could surmise that the cleansed soul aether gives them physical form. It's what makes up their tangible body. The memory aether is what then gives them their physical appearance and, err, memories.

The very fact that Otis can exist in two different forms simultaneously is proof enough that the Living Memory is making a copy of the memory aether instead of just storing the original wholesale. If it didn't, then Endless!Otis wouldn't exist. If Endless!Otis exists, then Robotis wouldn't.

Yes. That's the problem. What you're describing requires the same aether to be in two places. It makes sense if Endless Otis is a digital copy of real Otis from an earlier time, I get that. It'd also make sense if the Endless are the memory aether of the dead held together by lifeforce. I get that.

But they can't be both. But the game TELLS us they are the former, but SHOWS us the latter as the process of their creation.

1. He's not a scholar. He's the guy who just goes and gets things for them.
2. Being intelligent doesn't prevent grief, nor its processes.

Gleaners are scholars too. He states that when he's attempting to get information from a Forum member as we're listening on as frogs. I can find the scene and take a picture for you if you don't believe me. Grief doesn't make you forget how your afterlife works. And he doesn't seem sad in that moment, he seems enthused. And again, half the evidence points to him possibly being right and the other half points to him being incorrect. I'm curious why people are so quick to discard the parts suggesting he's right given it was how we justified deleting thousands of people.

"Oh no, what Cahcuia said directly multiple times was incorrect, this was actually the only version of these people and they are now gone forever. Oh well."

[EusisLandale]

Grief doesn't make you forget how your afterlife works. And he doesn't seem sad in that moment,

You're aware that the first stage of grief is generally considered denial right?
"I didn't just delete the last thing that made my mom her. She'll be in the afterlife waiting for me."

[LilimoLimomo]

You're aware that the first stage of grief is generally considered denial right?

This is a mild tangent, but for what it's worth, the "Five Stages of Grief" is a (popular) myth. It's one of those things that sounds plausible enough that people have just run with it for decades, despite the fact that there has never been a sound body of scientific data that supports the theory. On the contrary, the data that has been gathered on the subject broadly contradicts the theory.

[ElHeggunte]

But they can't be both. But the game TELLS us they are the former, but SHOWS us the latter as the process of their creation.

Why can’t it be both? Memory aether is just data—metadata for the soul, if I had to choose an analogy. The aetherial sea strips and discards memory aether from the soul too, with the occasional exception of especially strong memories sticking around when the soul is reincarnated. The Living Memory is just a bastardized version of the lifestream where it separates the soul from the memories, then it copies the memories into its database before discarding them. Afterwards it uses the blank souls as a base and superimposes the copied memories onto it to make the Endless.


That’s what the process seems like to me anyway, based on what we’ve seen and what the characters have said.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Why can’t it be both? Memory aether is just data—metadata for the soul, if I had to choose an analogy. The aetherial sea strips and discards memory aether from the soul too, with the occasional exception of especially strong memories sticking around when the soul is reincarnated. The Living Memory is just a bastardized version of the lifestream where it separates the soul from the memories, then it copies the memories into its database before discarding them. Afterwards it uses the blank souls as a base and superimposes the copied memories onto it to make the Endless.


That’s what the process seems like to me anyway, based on what we’ve seen and what the characters have said.

Because there is no mention of the memory aether being discarded. Quite the opposite they seem to be made of memory aether as that is what seems to dissipate when they do. And there would be no reason a digital copy of you would need lifeforce to be maintained. If it was just a digital copy, then there should have been a way to store them in a VR world. If it's memory aether then we're wiping the one and only version of people out of existence, so it's weird we're told not to feel guilty about it cause they are just copies.

The reason it can't be both is because the two explanations contradict each other. As I said before, it'd be like saying "I scanned your brain" then showing a brain being removed from someone's skull. That's not the same thing. And given there are two Otises we know that's not even a requirement.

Also they aren't using blank souls as a base as souls are eternal, so you wouldn't need more. The reason Sphene needs to kill people is because lifeforce, unlike souls, can be used up. The souls are being packaged into cells and sent back to Everkeep, the Endless are running on lifeforce.

[NishaSetsuya]

Gleaners are scholars too. He states that when he's attempting to get information from a Forum member as we're listening on as frogs. I can find the scene and take a picture for you if you don't believe me. Grief doesn't make you forget how your afterlife works. And he doesn't seem sad in that moment, he seems enthused. And again, half the evidence points to him possibly being right and the other half points to him being incorrect. I'm curious why people are so quick to discard the parts suggesting he's right given it was how we justified deleting thousands of people.

"Oh no, what Cahcuia said directly multiple times was incorrect, this was actually the only version of these people and they are now gone forever. Oh well."

His domain of expertise is nature and fauna, that why he is a gleaner. All the scholar in sharlayan have a domain of expertise not every one of them is knowledgable about aetherology.

Also i feel like those past expansion been about some of the stage of grief

Shadowbringer enial and Anger
Endwalker : Bargaining and depression
Dawntrail : Testing and Acceptance
(That my how interpretation of thing in relation to their last dungeon and zone. Similar but different)

[Lady_Silvermoon]

His domain of expertise is nature and fauna, that why he is a gleaner. All the scholar in sharlayan have a domain of expertise not every one of them is knowledgable about aetherology.

Also i feel like those past expansion been about some of the stage of grief

Shadowbringer enial and Anger
Endwalker : Bargaining and depression
Dawntrail : Testing and Acceptance
(That my how interpretation of thing in relation to their last dungeon and zone. Similar but different)

Erenville was in the room when Oblivion explains what happens to the souls of people wearing regulators. We are arguing if he's too dumb to understand something explained to him when it was explained to us.

Let me put it this way, do you believe the writers intentionally had him mistaken about the location of his mother's soul in a post-credit scene of what you believe is the Testing and Acceptance expansion?

If he's supposed to be at Acceptance, which I agree given he's saying this with a big smile on his face, why are people claiming he's just in Denial?

[Striker44]

If he's supposed to be at Acceptance, which I agree given he's saying this with a big smile on his face, why are people claiming he's just in Denial?

Simple - the expansion is about "Testing and Acceptance" for us (the players behind the 4th wall). For Erenville in the game at that moment, he's just experienced the loss and is in denial.