Please nerf/adjust one of the new Expert Dungeons (7.0 spoilers)

[SlickPaws]

Honestly, the new dungeon mechanics are bullshit anyway. They've really doubled down on the idea that all their fights need to be centered around ADHD Dance Dance Revolution mechanics, and I suspect a big reason for that is being able to program NPCs to get it right every time when it comes to trusts etc. The problem is, if you don't know the steps of the dance, you're fucked until you do... Making the "difficulty" a series of brick wall based face-smashing until you get it - or tune out the mechanic and hope for the best. I do the latter on the tea cups, because if SE expect me to keep track of two spinning cups rotating while moving in and out simultaneously while keeping up my melee uptime and making sure I hit my positions, they'll be waiting a long-ass time.

I like that they've attempted to make "Expert" content feel more challenging than levelling dungeons, and generally upped the difficulty. These are good things. However, the way they've gone about it is utterly stupid and the fight design is asinine - particularly for a melee main, where you get doubly punished every time you need to avoid yet another barrage of AOEs because now you've got no uptime and the fight's going to take *that* much longer, which inevitably means more AOEs and so on... To the point where I'm sitting here wondering why melee even still exist in the first place.

[kizumiayamame]

True north exists btw ^^

[SlickPaws]

True north exists btw ^^

Popping Bloodbath and shouting at my healer to adjust in VC works pretty well too.

[tsuchii]

Did we play the same dungeon? It's not that bad. It would just take you a few more times to get used to it. New content is not designed for you to be perfect at it at first try.

[Tint]

Honestly, the new dungeon mechanics are bullshit anyway. They've really doubled down on the idea that all their fights need to be centered around ADHD Dance Dance Revolution mechanics, and I suspect a big reason for that is being able to program NPCs to get it right every time when it comes to trusts etc. The problem is, if you don't know the steps of the dance, you're fucked until you do... Making the "difficulty" a series of brick wall based face-smashing until you get it - or tune out the mechanic and hope for the best.

Problem is that with first boss in Strayborough Deadwalk and second Arkadion turn you will never learn the dance steps because it is too chaotic. Which would be fine if you would not get stunned and then instantly die if you get hit just once >.>

Also first boss in Alexandria has such small safe spots and you have to move so fast that it is hard to see if you stay right or are still with one foot in when the damage goes off.

[Lersayil]

The hitboxes on the first boss are jank as hell. Sometimes I can dodge them by a hairs breath (like Touhou levels of close), but other times they lounge at me from yalms away to catch me.

I never really had lag or ping issues, so I doubt its that. Fix the hitboxes and its fine.

[EponaTBHSMH]

The problem is, if you don't know the steps of the dance, you're fucked until you do... Making the "difficulty" a series of brick wall based face-smashing until you get it

Did you just describe a Learning Curve with that sentence?

What's the problem with that? What's with not being able to solve a mechanic the first time you see it and having to run it several times before finally getting it?

And also I do think melee uptime isn't that much of a big deal in Expert, since you are just running it to clear and get your tomes, it's at worst a 2min difference? How long are those expert runs for you?

Problem is that with first boss in Strayborough Deadwalk and second Arkadion turn you will never learn the dance steps because it is too chaotic.

Strayborough is impossible because of the jank hitboxes but for Arkadion i found this:

https://x.com/meister_akito_7/status...59097923383347

[SlickPaws]

Did we play the same dungeon? It's not that bad. It would just take you a few more times to get used to it. New content is not designed for you to be perfect at it at first try.

We played the same dungeon, and you missed the point entirely. My complaint is that the design philosophy for the new content is that exactly - not that I'm expecting things to be done perfectly at first anyway. This "learn by error and perform by rote" type of design just feels bad most of the time when it has to result in gotcha mechanics, or throwing so much on screen at once to overwhelm and then giving you an increasingly smaller window to react as time has gone on. Obviously once you get it, you get it and for the most part, you don't ever have trouble again but I'm just finding that loop quite tiresome by this point.

If all the difficulty is focused around movement and positioning, I find that it actively takes away from the primary goal of actually doing damage - and admittedly, there's an added layer of difficulty there of trying to make it work anyway. I think personally I'd like to see more mechanics geared towards DPS checks and heal checks; random aggro swaps to keep the tank on their toes; more unique boss arenas with enviromental hazards etc. I just don't feel like this whole "stand in the correct place" resolution for 90% of mechanics is fit for purpose anymore.

Did you just describe a Learning Curve with that sentence?

What's the problem with that? What's with not being able to solve a mechanic the first time you see it and having to run it several times before finally getting it?

And also I do think melee uptime isn't that much of a big deal in Expert, since you are just running it to clear and get your tomes, it's at worst a 2min difference? How long are those expert runs for you?
https://x.com/meister_akito_7/status...59097923383347

I guess I did, but that's my fault for phrasing. Generally, I'm moaning about the *type* of mechanics we're getting, rather than the difficulty of them. Like I said previously, I don't mind extra difficulty and I don't expect to do things perfectly first time, but I am getting tired of this type of 'fast-react to AOEs and stand in the correct spot' type of mechanics.

I spent 40 minutes in Strayborough yesterday, wiping again and again on the first boss before someone took the lock-out and left. I didn't play perfectly, I won't lie but the healer just couldn't react to the mechanics in time. They eventually apologised and bailed, so the rest of us disbanded and called it a day. Maybe it's just early days, but people really are struggling with a lot of this stuff just now.

[Teno]

Honestly, the new dungeon mechanics are bullshit anyway. They've really doubled down on the idea that all their fights need to be centered around ADHD Dance Dance Revolution mechanics, and I suspect a big reason for that is being able to program NPCs to get it right every time when it comes to trusts etc. The problem is, if you don't know the steps of the dance, you're fucked until you do... Making the "difficulty" a series of brick wall based face-smashing until you get it - or tune out the mechanic and hope for the best. I do the latter on the tea cups, because if SE expect me to keep track of two spinning cups rotating while moving in and out simultaneously while keeping up my melee uptime and making sure I hit my positions, they'll be waiting a long-ass time.

I like that they've attempted to make "Expert" content feel more challenging than levelling dungeons, and generally upped the difficulty. These are good things. However, the way they've gone about it is utterly stupid and the fight design is asinine - particularly for a melee main, where you get doubly punished every time you need to avoid yet another barrage of AOEs because now you've got no uptime and the fight's going to take *that* much longer, which inevitably means more AOEs and so on... To the point where I'm sitting here wondering why melee even still exist in the first place.

This is not ultimate, the expert dungeons let you play on a reaction gameplay more than well enough, you don't need to learn anything.

[EponaTBHSMH]

I guess I did, but that's my fault for phrasing. Generally, I'm moaning about the *type* of mechanics we're getting, rather than the difficulty of them. Like I said previously, I don't mind extra difficulty and I don't expect to do things perfectly first time, but I am getting tired of this type of 'fast-react to AOEs and stand in the correct spot' type of mechanics.

I spent 40 minutes in Strayborough yesterday, wiping again and again on the first boss before someone took the lock-out and left. I didn't play perfectly, I won't lie but the healer just couldn't react to the mechanics in time. They eventually apologised and bailed, so the rest of us disbanded and called it a day. Maybe it's just early days, but people really are struggling with a lot of this stuff just now.

No problem I understood where you were getting at with the post you made after, you basically want difficulty that's not solely based on positioning, Im not too sure if Squeenix wants to go the route of DPS checks and heal checks in this type of content because what if people can't meet those checks? They might stop Expert roulette and seek alternatives like Hunt trains to get their tomes