We Haven't Been Heroes In A Long Time

[Magikazam]

Someone who made a tough decision to save the universe for the greater good

Good thing the story shame the Ancient for sacrifiing their own people to Zodiark so they can stall the Endtime while they try and find a solution. I mean, that horrible compared to Venat ''tought decision'' of genociding every souls bare 3 from the world to stall the end time so that new life can try and find a solution.... Oh wait.

It also weird you don't defend Joraal Ja, I mean, he want to put the world into a war and conquer everything so he can create peace, at the cost of many death, That so heroic from him, Slay king!

[HelSpites]

Alright then, thanks for confirming that you didn't actually pay attention to the story and don't actually understand any of what you're talking about.

I don't know how far up your own ascian loving ass you have to be to listen to zeno's speech and think that it's about venat when it's clearly addressing the "emet did nothing wrong" crowd, but I'll go ahead and break it down for you (although you might want to go watch a compilation of the cutscenes since you've clearly never seen, or at the very least never paid attention to them):

Zeno's speech has him acknowledging that what he's doing is absolutely monstrous. Everything he's done is unequivocally bad and he knows it, the thing is though, he doesn't care. That being said, he's still self aware enough to understand that if anyone can look at the horrific things he's done and say that he did a good thing because they liked his reasons for doing them, then a beast's skin suits them better.

Alright, now of the two characters, emet, and venat, which has done a thing that's unequivocally bad and how do people argue in their favor? Well, when it comes to actions being good or bad, you can judge them by a person's intentions and the outcomes of those actions.

venat sundered the ancients. Was that bad? I mean, in a sense I suppose, she killed a shit load of people, but she did so in order to stop the ancients from sacrificing more and more to zodiark, and in doing so she ended up stopping the accelerated heat death of the universe.

Emet founded the garlean nation, a fascist monarchy who's only purpose was to sow chaos and instability throughout the world in order to encourage the beast tribes to summon primals, and that's just on the source. He and his buddies have committed planetary genocide 8 times over by shadowbringers, killing waaaaay more people than venat ever did, and he planned to finish the job on all the remaining reflections. What would the end result of his actions be then? Well, the ancients would be back and then the end of days would happen again, along with the accelerated heat death of the universe.

Were venat's actions "unequivocally bad"? No. Why? Because the led to good outcomes.

Were emet's actions "unequivocally bad"? Yes. Why? Because they led to bad outcomes and would have led to even worse outcomes if he'd been allowed to keep going.

Why do people defend venat? Because she was right. Her actions were totally vindicated.

Why do people defend emet? Because he's a very charismatic character and he's sad in a few cutscenes, and apparently that's enough to convince people that establishing a fascist empire and committing multiple genocides is a-okay.

Given all of this, who do you suppose zeno was actually talking about? (I ask, knowing full well that you're going to do the most astounding mental gymnastics imaginable to pretend like zeno's speech was actually about the character that it wasn't actually about)

[HelSpites]

Good thing the story shame the Ancient for sacrifiing their own people to Zodiark so they can stall the Endtime while they try and find a solution. I mean, that horrible compared to Venat ''tought decision'' of genociding every souls bare 3 from the world to stall the end time so that new life can try and find a solution.... Oh wait.

It also weird you don't defend Joraal Ja, I mean, he want to put the world into a war and conquer everything so he can create peace, at the cost of many death, That so heroic from him, Slay king!

My dude, you're missing a very key point here; the ancients weren't stalling to try and find a solution. Zodiark was their solution. That was it. They weren't even working on a plan B. The start and end of their whole plan was "Feed more souls to zodiark forever". It was unsustainable. Not only did Venat's plan buy more time than feeding more things to the umbral meat grinder, but it actually led to a real solution.

I'm going to need you to rub a pair of braincells together and think about why someone might support venat's successful plan to stop the end of days, and not support zoraal ja's plan to...prove he's stronger than his father by making a deal with the devil that involves feeding the entire world to an insatiable hoard parasitic aether ghosts, who will then need to travel to the next reflection and the next reflection and the next, until there's nothing left for them to eat and their time inevitably runs out.

Gee, I wonder why someone might support a questionable action that has good outcomes, but then not support a bad action that has no conceivable good outcomes. It's a real brain buster man, you're really going to have to sit and think about it.

[Cach]

*snip*

Sucks to be you, buddy, this is actually a subforum for Blade Runners in training.
Jokes aside, like I pointed out on another thread the "new lore" as it relates to souls is just such a giant mess, having a coherent conversation about the consequences of it is just a waste of effort. And we've been to the place were souls go, the last 10-15 hours of game is just me constantly going "WHAT? WHAT? WHAT?"

Were venat's actions "unequivocally bad"?

"Man, I have all the information to start working on a solution but I think I'll cause a millennia of pure torture and suffering instead". And that's just the tip of an iceberg, bud.

[TaleraRistain]

idk my whole point was just that I find it stupid that Venat is praised for her action when she also did a genocide. Like, the story showing Venat as an heroic figure for me is as bad as if they would have done it with Emet.

Y'shtola: "There is one thing I must ask. By sundering the world into fourteen shards, the aether of all living beings too was divided. This reduction would in theory allow us to more easily interact with dynamis. Having seen mankind brought to the very precipice of extinction, you wished for us to develop a means to overcome despair. You believed we had potential, and sundered all creation to see it fulfilled. To deliver us to that swirling maelstrom of dynamis in which our foe hides, and grant us the power to defeat her once and for all, is this not true?"

Hydaelyn: "It is as thou sayest. Twas the trial to which I subjected mankind, and it hath led to untold bloodshed and suffering. There was no kindness nor justice in the tragedy I wrought. When confronted with the almighty Zodiark, my only recourse was to rend Him and the world asunder, that His power be diminished for a time. And so it came to pass. Now you, my chosen, have surpassed my expectations. Surpassed me. I entrust the fate of the universe...unto you."

Not really portraying her as a heroic figure there. Just someone doing what she thought was going to give mankind a chance to win against despair and she outright admits it was a tragedy.

Emet wasn't evil either. Emet was a man who never took the time to work through his grief. He couldn't imagine a world without what he had lost and he was willing to become a monster to bring it back. But when we defeated him, it seemed he had acceptance on his face. And there were also clues that he knew we were a piece of his dear friend remaining behind to protect the world.

[Chiru_Kai]

So OP, you think if we just sat on our hands and let it all happen, the world would be a better place right now?

Okay, let's recap:
Shadowbringers:
- There would be an 8th Umbral Calamity. Remember the disaster that Bahamut wrought? Yeah, that was one calamity. Except this one would have to do with Black Rose. Basically a nerve toxin that would spread all over the Source and kill a large portion of people and facilitate the merging of the First into the Source.

Endwalker:
- There would be an invasion of Dynamis influencing and altering people. You know, we see it happening live to people when we do Vanaspati, or plenty of cutscenes. We don't put a stop to it? Great, Meteion just gets her way with us, and kills us all because, in her eyes, it's all hopeless and everyone else is dead too so we might as well join. Such a happy joyful motivation.

Dawntrail:
- The souls of people across the Source and other remaining Shards would be harvested to be used as fuel to simulate some Large Language Model of someone's dead grandma. They make it pretty clear that their system isn't sustainable but they continue anyways and basically become akin to a virus, or parasites. Definitely good people and we should just accept their culture of murderizing others.


Yes, sure, world is definitely a better place with all this.
*claps sarcastically*

[MikkoAkure]

Yes, I played the story, and I've paid it more attention than any of you.

Says the person who claims last time we were a hero was SB despite multiple NPCs referring to us as such in ShB by our comrade, our enemy, and the people of that world we saved.

And also claims that the people of Solution Nine lived "a thousand, thousand of our lifetimes" despite according to the Alexandrians themselves it was just 400 years. And becoming Endless isn't their survival method, it's Sphene's way of "saving" the dead. Again, it feels like people care much more about Alexandria's over-engineered graveyard than the surviving and thriving populace and infantilize what is probably the most populated, powerful, and technologically advanced civilization on the Source which is exactly what Sphene was doing by wiping their memories of the dead and coddling them. Other than the rare few with levin sickness, nothing about their life appears to be "struggling" and they turned a horrible situation around and very obviously have a MUCH greater quality of life than any place we've ever seen in the game in a futuristic megapolis.

Why are you still here. It's apparent that this hasn't been a story you've liked for years. Pretty sure there's a word used for doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.

[Avoidy]

And this is the future of ffxiv. Where the writers attempt to write a "grey morality" story, only to make many convoluted justifications (that often break the lore) just so players can still do their moral high horse and say "uhm no, the WoL is hero. X villain is genocide/evil/etc."

This is kids game after all.

I called the situation with Bakool right out the gate, told myself "I bet he'll have a traumatic childhood backstory or something" but even I couldn't have predicted the severity of his 180 degree turn or the suddenness of it, holy crap. I say this as someone who liked Bakool in the end; his change and the quick/lazy way it was implemented felt like the writers were just checking boxes.

[Dorito_Burrito]

And this is the future of ffxiv. Where the writers attempt to write a "grey morality" story, only to make many convoluted justifications (that often break the lore) just so players can still do their moral high horse and say "uhm no, the WoL is hero. X villain is genocide/evil/etc."

This is kids game after all.

I bet your search comment says "Emet-Selch was right."

[Magikazam]

think about why someone might support venat's successful plan to stop the end of days, and not support zoraal ja's plan

So my whole point was just about the fact that Someone like Venat having ''good intention'' don't make turn a genocide into a good thing. As you said, the outcome does matter in the end. The person I was replying too just said that ''having good intention'' mean it okay to commit as many murders as you want since it for a good cause, and in that case well, Emmet, The Garlemald Empire and Zoraal ja would be saints. I think we can agree that good intention alone don't justify genocide.

I wonder why someone might support a questionable action that has good outcomes, but then not support a bad action that has no conceivable good outcomes.

Idk about you but I don't pat myself on the back after supporting the better out of two mass murderers, but you do you.

Were venat's actions "unequivocally bad"

I don't think anyone that ain't ''comically evil'' is unequivocally bad. That being said, Introducing Elpis time travel created so much problem that kinda force Venat to be either stupid or just evil for no reason. She don't talk to anyone about the Final day, She don't tell them about the fact that Dynamis is the cause of the final day. Btw the reason they summon Zodiark is because they believe the issue is simply due to stagnated Aeather, I think it fair to say they would have reconsidered using Zodiark if they knew about dynamis. She refuse to tell her plans to the group following her, and then use them to become a Primal and to kill everyone. She fake being out of Aether after ARR just to tell us in EW she was hoarding a good ammount just to fight and test us, Pretty sure that she could have done something more relevant than that tbh.

Her not losing her memory in Elpis make it hard to consider her a good person.