You pull you tank question.

[Thurmnmurmn]

The TOS is there to prevent and discourage harassment, not to use as a tool to bludgeon your playstyle on others. Also, saying "It's the one true guideline that people can't contest" is laughable. Like all legalese, it's open to plenty of interpretation, as the widely ranging (and ludicrous) readings in this thread and others amply demonstrate.

I actually forgot this part in my response earlier. The topic of is it against TOS is literally the topic of this thread.

Where exactly do the GMs stand on this issue. Where exactly do the tos stand on this issue? And where do you the players stand on this issue.


Is it against tos?
If not should it be?
Are there exceptions where its okay to refuse to tank?

You're free to disagree with my interpretation of it of course but would you mind pointing out where I'm wrong? I'm curious because I made sure to include when tanks and DPS are at fault.

[VoidsentStatus]

.

1) You just said the same thing that I said. "trying to get someone else to do" something is not the same as doing it on their own willingly. All you did was replace "trying to get someone to do" with "demand", which functionally have the same meaning since persuasion would fall under "trying to get someone to want to do". I don't even know what this clarification is for.

2) Tankbusters and aoe's are not enmity related, those are role-tasked damage. It specifically says "actions" aka job actions that affect enmity and manipulating them to interfere with someone's gameplay. If I see someone fighting low level adds doing an AOE in open world and I drag an S rank to them and force them to take aggro away from me, I have manipulated the enmity they were generating for their adds that could potentially cause them to die or not be able to achieve their initial gameplay goal.

3) The intent doesn't matter for MPK. Square Enix purposely details when intent does matter inside of its guidelines. Stalking violations, it matters. Trade blocking, it matters. Obstructing Gameplay Using Combat, it matters. MPK does not have that language attached, therefore you cannot infer Square Enix would care about that distinction.

"Simply performing the acts listed above will not immediately result in a violation, as they could be caused unintentionally or be due to unintended circumstances."
"despite being asked to stop the behavior."
""Nuisance behavior" is speech or behavior that hurts others or obstructs their gameplay, but which is not classified as harassment. Even if it was not intended, a penalty may be issued if the end result was that another person was hurt, or their gameplay was obstructed."
"If it has been determined that the above behaviors were done intentionally **or repeatedly** to obstruct the other player's gameplay, then a penalty will be issued."

4) That's refusing to play **YOUR** definition of correct. Square is not going to punish a player for their definition of correct as long as they doing bare minimum of still contributing to the instance. Their rotation does not matter, their mitigation does matter. Their positioning past a certain point does not matter. Square Enix does not enforce optimal play, nor do they enforce cooperative play as my original post detailed.

[VoidsentStatus]

Because it's literally irrelevant for dungeon content. There's barely anything to consider or optimise.

You should stretch before reaching this much, might put your back out. YPYT is absolutely all three of those. It compels a playstyle of 'let me be the main character or I'll turn stance off and kill you'. It obstructs gameplay for the entire party by killing people that wound the tanks ego, and it is unquestionably an MPK. Again, a tank's role is to hold aggro, not pull mobs. Tanks pulling is convention.

1) Every person that has put out tank guides or been a tank mentor is going to disagree with nothing to optimize. Instead of writing an essay, I'm just going to make the same bet I did before. If you think you can run the same rotation without optimization in every dungeon content regardless of your teammates, put your gil where your mouth is.

2) We don't have to turn off tank stance. We can just choose to single target so you end up killing yourself when you don't attack the same things as us. You committing suicide is not going to get blamed on me. You, often times acting alone and going out to grab extra adds, while 2 of the other teammates playing properly and attacking my same target, is not going to be obstructing gameplay of the party when YOU ARE THE OUTLIER IN THE PARTY ATTACKING YOUR OWN ENEMIES.

[noelregnard]

Blah blah blah more nonsense

1. LMAO, you really don't know anything. Lemme teach you how to tank. You need at least 20% - 30% mit for a W2W pull, that means you need at least 1 big mit button: rampart, arm's length, sentinel. Then you combine it with one of the smaller mits with shorter cooldown: sheltron, HoC, etc. THE ORDER DOESN'T MATTER as long as you have enough. No need to thank me for lesson.

2. Oh I get it now, so you, somehow think that the very basic of anything, not just gaming, is something super complicated that needs hours to master. Got it, no wonder you think reprisal alone is enough for a w2w or clemency is worth a gcd. Poor thing

3. No you don't, you think reprisal is good enough for a w2w or clemency is worth using in a standard dungeon run. You clearly don't know anything about tanking.

4. LMAO of course a YPYT chud with main character syndrome would use NPC as an insult. "LOOK AT ME I'M THE MAIN CHARACTER WHAHHHHHH". You know what, trust NPCs can actually handle a w2w and they know how to pull aggro of PT members. I'd rather be a tust NPC than a YPYT chud

[Thurmnmurmn]

snip

1) The difference is that the act of pulling more is not against the TOS. The act of pulling more AFTER someone expresses they don't want big pulls is.

2) That's fair. My example here falls more in MPK then.
But the main point there was more at the end about how there still needs to be some communication before you can accuse an extra pull to fall under this. It's not just "you pull extra, it's reportable".

3) By this logic, any wipe could be reportable.

4) As I've pointed out in a previous post. The literal definition of a tank by SE is "Tank
High in HP and trained in defense, a tank serves as the party's shield. Skilled at keeping a foe's attention and bearing the brunt of enemy attacks."
Them keeping aggro is literally the job they are there for. What else would you consider as the bare minimum?

Overall communication is what determines most of these. All except the act of YPYT which is an outright refusal to play their role.

[VoidsentStatus]

.

All I read was "Sphene, listen to me, please!"

*AI Sphene voice* *points to Wuk Lamat* "Begone from my presence."

[noelregnard]

Oops look like our main character lost the plot ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[ThorneDynasty]

Literally just always take the fucking aggro from non-tanks no matter what happens. The party will 99.9% of the time be better for it, and you are not doing your one, absolute one fucking job if you don't. (The 0.01% is the atomos adds in the Labyrinth, btw.)

It's that easy.

[Mistress_Irika]

I'm definitely not sure how this keeps popping up despite the answer being clear as day, but okay.

The reason why I've quit tanking in the first place was because of DPS pulling for me. You're literally making someone work harder just for you to speedrun and be done with a roulette. You don't pay my sub. Yet, you get to decide how other people play the game. I'll pass. I'll dps. I don't regret making the switch either. Every now and then I run into a group who wipes because the tank and healer didn't have it together with the large pulls. I just use my potions and whatever defenses I have in order to avoid wiping with them. They can do the walk of shame. I'm not joining.

Bottom line. Everyone needs to stop throwing expectations on every single person about a personal playstyle and just play your role. This isn't League of Legends. You never know when you'll run into a tank that only does single target damage.
This whole "You pull, you tank" mentality needs to be buried as well. That type of retaliation makes you look like the bigger dummy.

[ThorneDynasty]

I'm definitely not sure how this keeps popping up despite the answer being clear as day, but okay.

The reason why I've quit tanking in the first place was because of DPS pulling for me. You're literally making someone work harder just for you to speedrun and be done with a roulette. You don't pay my sub. Yet, you get to decide how other people play the game. I'll pass. I'll dps. I don't regret making the switch either. Every now and then I run into a group who wipes because the tank and healer didn't have it together with the large pulls. I just use my potions and whatever defenses I have in order to avoid wiping with them. They can do the walk of shame. I'm not joining.

Bottom line. Everyone needs to stop throwing expectations on every single person about a personal playstyle and just play your role. This isn't League of Legends. You never know when you'll run into a tank that only does single target damage.
This whole "You pull, you tank" mentality needs to be buried as well. That type of retaliation makes you look like the bigger dummy.

The only thing I'll agree with you is you quitting tanking.