Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

[Eyrilona]

In my mind, Wuk Lamat is as salt. There is nothing inherently wrong with it, and it is full of potential to be a good thing. When applied in the correct, modest, amounts, salt enhances the flavor of most meals it is added to.

But if the lid comes off and the entire contents of the salt shaker are dumped all over the food in front of me, leaving every bit of it to have a crust of salt all over it, then that meal is going to taste terrible and be very unhealthy to eat. If I am then forced regardless to consume this ruined meal before I am allowed to have any dessert (yes, that is a metaphor for having to do the msq before you can unlock the rest of the content) then of course over such a bad meal experience I am going to feel some resentment to the establishment and the treatment I was given, as well as absolutely not wanting anything to do with salt for a while because I am now badly in need of a palate cleanser.

But I still would not say salt is a bad thing. Just that having far too much of it is.

I feel the same way about Wuk Lamat. I don't dislike the character. I do dislike how much Wuk Lamat there was applied to absolutely everything.

[Turtledeluxe]

In my mind, Wuk Lamat is as salt. There is nothing inherently wrong with it, and it is full of potential to be a good thing. When applied in the correct, modest, amounts, salt enhances the flavor of most meals it is added to.

But if the lid comes off and the entire contents of the salt shaker are dumped all over the food in front of me, leaving every bit of it to have a crust of salt all over it, then that meal is going to taste terrible and be very unhealthy to eat. If I am then forced regardless to consume this ruined meal before I am allowed to have any dessert (yes, that is a metaphor for having to do the msq before you can unlock the rest of the content) then of course over such a bad meal experience I am going to feel some resentment to the establishment and the treatment I was given, as well as absolutely not wanting anything to do with salt for a while because I am now badly in need of a palate cleanser.

But I still would not say salt is a bad thing. Just that having far too much of it is.

I feel the same way about Wuk Lamat. I don't dislike the character. I do dislike how much Wuk Lamat there was applied to absolutely everything.

That's how I feel as well, which admittedly makes my position inherently biased. I think Wuk Lamat is fine. It's just that no character should be around that much unless their personal story actually demands that level of frequency. Wuk Lamat did not have enough to actually say or enough character development to be as involved in the story as she was. As a result what you get is something that feels uninspired, repetitive, grating.

We didn‘t get DT because of feedback or despite it.
We got it because they wanted to try something new. I linked an article to that interview somewhere in one of those threads.

Wuk Lamat was the result of that.

If you want the other thing.
We did get a very spiced up fight design with DT.
That was not because people went full in detail what they wanted but because they said „the dungeons suck so much we fall asleep“.

I know where you are coming from. These more nuanced discussions are in another thread though.
This one here is on Wuk Lamat and for me she had the biggest impact on the story in a negative sense.

Then is there a reason to give feedback at all? They can always "try something completely new". I am unsure how literally we should take that kind of statement- I think devs care a lot about feedback from the past. But we can't know that so it's pointless to debate.

As far as what the thread is for, I tend to base my thoughts on the OP and frankly, OP seems confused. They blame the expansion on Wuk but then post a bunch of discussions that seem much more comprehensive. All of my posts are kind of a long way of saying that. I think the dialogue around DT is much more complicated. I never said people can't dislike the character, I'm just giving my thoughts on certain kinds of feedback.

There is literally nothing I can say or do that will stop people from disliking Wuk Lamat or posting about her in whatever way, all I'm doing is offering my thoughts.

[BabySneed]

I swear, I was sighing over that too.
I'm trying to do aether current side quests, and they go "Ah you were with Poochie, weren't you?"
I'm a lalafell, literally something that is not common in Tural, and that's my claim to fame, being Poochie's accesory?

Please SE, give me the ability to punch the shins of friendly NPCs ... please.

Actually one of the aether current quests in Urqopacha is exactly what you're asking for, it's a Giant going like "i have never seen one like you, demonstrate how such a tiny baby man is capable of laying low the valigarmanda". I'm not sure what the quest entails exactly for other races but this part is definitely Lalabro exclusive dialogue, which for the record I appreciate whenever a quest acknowledges my race or job, it's a small detail but it makes it feel more immersive and generally is just nice flavor

Though I agree it's kind of weird how many times the only thing I'm known for is being Poochie's underling, like surely I did something else of note during my adventure? Or even just having someone else I'm associated with, like you'd think for example the Pelupelu would think more of me being the guy who helped out Mablu (someone who is established and likely respected in the community) than Poochie (someone who was there for like half an hour out of obligation).
Also somewhat related trivia, 6/9 of the MSQ duties' descriptions go out of their way to specifically mention Wuk Lamat's relevance to the duty; the only ones that don't are the lv100 dungeon, lv99 trial, and lv100 trial.

[Yshnal]

It would not be okay Ish. It would be the lowest rated and worst expansion as it is currently.

In my personal opinion, it's also cringe the way people talk about the character as though she is real. She is not. She is a poorly written character amongst many other poorly written things in DT. Maybe that's what people are trying to say in some of the rants I've seen.

I'm also not calling for anyone to stop talking. I am telling you that devs tend to interpret feedback a certain way and if what they garner from the expansion is "I hate Wuk Lamat" then we just won't see her again. The problem is, the odds you would see her again anyway are 0.005%. You can still continue to hate on a character that is not real, be my guest.

I would also note you're not even being objective. When you say "Wuk Lamat is the most inconsistent." Based on what metric? Every Scion we know acts out of character at some point and even new ones, like Bakool ja ja become unrecognizable once converted from cartoonist evil to good.

You are positing things like "if wuk lamat didn't exist, Krile's story would be well written." That is a contradiction considering this writer wrote this MSQ. They wrote Wuk Lamat. A lot of these arguments are copium.

Okay-ish doesn't mean that it would be good. It could still be the worst expansion so far, but at least it would be better than what we got. Not having the most annoying and worst written (and with the worst VA, if you play in English) character on screen 99% of the time would definitely help in achieving that.

I don't know what makes you think that people are talking about the character as if it was a real person. Criticising her in particular doesn't mean that anyone sees her as a real person, and I don't even know what made you think that way. Maybe some people's jokes about her? Anyway, this has already been explained by other posters.

And you are not calling for anyone to stop talking, but you were saying that their criticism is "whining" and "having real life issues with the game". You're basically disregarding other people's opinions by making stuff up, instead of reading what they are actually saying.

Moreover, yes, she's the most inconsistent on this expansion. Not because of how she acts (she is who she is), but due to her several insane power increases out of the blue that make no sense just for the sake to keep making her the focus of the story (like being able to beat Bakool Ja Ja, or fight as equals with improved Zoraal Ja), up to the point of even forcing her into the last trial over Krile or G'raha, which were also there. The only other character that did anything similar was Zoraal Ja, and it was properly explained why (30 years plus alexandrian tech). And since you mentioned it, even Bakool Ja Ja's original attitude is explained, and he doesn't change all of a sudden and without thinking twice about it (hint: his mother, the only one that apparently gave him some love and didn't treat him like a tool, made him listen to find another path to end with the deaths of their children).

Lastly, nowhere did I say that if Wuk Lamat didn't exist Krile's story would be well written. I said that there would had been more time to properly develop that story, among others, which is one of the things that make the writing of the expansion this bad. I mentioned this even when I said "I'm not saying that that would had guaranteed that the story was good, but that not being there DID make the story worse." It's curious that you, being the one asking others to not criticise Wuk Lamat so much and instead focus on the writing as a whole, missed this. I think that you insist so much on your thought that people criticise the character, that you miss why we're talking about her. This is not just about her being badly written, but about the fact that she being so badly written (which is not limited to her a character, but also to how she's shoehorned everywhere) ended up affecting other parts of the story.

[Turtledeluxe]

Now I can see why you are so hung up on my initial post, which I will quote for reference here:

The whole "anything without Wuk" era after this is going to be hilarious. Many of the people claiming to actually have problems with the storytelling will just end up being unhinged Wuk Lamat haters. Your feedback isn't helpful. A secondary protagonist like Wuk has never taken over an entire arc. All you're doing is whining when the expansion has legitimate storytelling problems that shouldn't be repeated, general characterization being only one and not exclusive to Wuk Lamat.

In other words what I'm saying is, you're just going to the people eating up the usual crap storytelling until some other character comes along and triggers you. Dawntrail has many problems of which Wuk Lamat is just a symptom.

It's a shame because we need more players just asking for better in the writing, not blaming fictional characters for their real life issues with a game.

If anything, the transition from Zero to Wuk should teach you that. People thought the patches were bad, now you have DT. Just saying characters are single handedly ruining stories is ineffective.

Notice that I am referencing specific behavior here i.e. assuming content would be good without Wuk Lamat or otherwise just kind of making bandwagoning comments of no real substance (hating) like implying she would become a Scion or persist in future arcs (the writers have never done that, it took G'raha multiple expansions and he was very popular). Nowhere did I ever say multi faceted criticism doesn't exist, nowhere did I say stop talking about Wuk Lamat. At this point you're exerting too much effort to distort what I said so it just needs to be pointed out. We are getting into too many tangents, and I just don't care. Now let's go over your post with that said.

I don't know what makes you think that people are talking about the character as if it was a real person. Criticising her in particular doesn't mean that anyone sees her as a real person, and I don't even know what made you think that way. Maybe some people's jokes about her? Anyway, this has already been explained by other posters.

I stand by my question, how many times will someone bring this up? Maybe you're the one harping on it. I made a general post purposely because I didn't come here to pick out posts, or other posts from other threads, and call people out as unhinged. That's not my goal. I wanted to phrase it more like a friendly reminder to people who seem to be interpreting Wuk Lamat less as a bad character and more like a personal insult to them from the writer. It's really not that complicated. I'm sorry you feel like it's 200 pages of totally reasonable comments, especially when as I am about to explain, some of your own thoughts about the character seem like parroted ideas/hating.

And you are not calling for anyone to stop talking, but you were saying that their criticism is "whining" and "having real life issues with the game".

My post literally did not quote anyone. So I'm not misreading or distorting anything. I posted what I posted after reviewing the OP and sufficient pages to determine there are some unreasonably shallow posts. And yes, I think if you're blaming Wuk Lamat for the story, you're replacing blame on the writers with fandom hate of a character.

Moreover, yes, she's the most inconsistent on this expansion. Not because of how she acts (she is who she is), but due to her several insane power increases out of the blue that make no sense just for the sake to keep making her the focus of the story (like being able to beat Bakool Ja Ja, or fight as equals with improved Zoraal Ja), up to the point of even forcing her into the last trial over Krile or G'raha, which were also there. The only other character that did anything similar was Zoraal Ja, and it was properly explained why (30 years plus alexandrian tech). And since you mentioned it, even Bakool Ja Ja's original attitude is explained, and he doesn't change all of a sudden and without thinking twice about it (hint: his mother, the only one that apparently gave him some love and didn't treat him like a tool, made him listen to find another path to end with the deaths of their children).

First of all-- you don't think it's important to denote that you're referencing her power level rather than her character development in a thread about her character??? Secondly, who really cares?? But I will explain anyway how this illustrates that you're a hater. Zoraal Ja requires storytelling for us to see his change in power. He is not a party member with us. We do not see him really "level up". Wuk Lamat on the other hand literally parties with us constantly, as you acknowledge. Even without a specific storytelling moment to explain "here's how she goes this limit break", you understand what it means for a character to grow in ability over 40 hours. That's exactly what you're own character does. Why is Wuk Lamat not allowed to get stronger? Because you just don't want her to? It just seems like hating.

Bakool Ja Ja's transition is both abrupt and shallow. He goes from kidnapping and potentially murdering Wuk Lamat's father (specifically because he is her father) to telling someone and I quote, "Share your suffering with the Third Promise.. (and she will fix all your problems)". I forget the statement but it doesn't even sound like him. I can see the writer writing it, forcing him into the "Wuk Lamat cheerleader" corner. This is also considering his culture induced racism and bizarre psycho release of a murderous mythical creature on innocent people. In one of his very first scenes, he admits to having no plans as Dawnservant (inconsistent writing). Koana is a victim of the very same thing. Outside of him caring about his sister, there's really no buildup to his sudden conversion to being her simp. Both are instances of shallow writing. Wuk Lamat is not the only character that is mishandled in this way, and made to act unnaturally upon the whim of the writer. And I know what you're going to say-- "well this is a thread about her and she's the main problem with the story". Ok well let me be the single person in the thread who says the expansion has way more problems that are worse than just Wuk Lamat being Naruto.

Lastly, nowhere did I say that if Wuk Lamat didn't exist Krile's story would be well written. I said that there would had been more time to properly develop that story, among others, which is one of the things that make the writing of the expansion this bad. I mentioned this even when I said "I'm not saying that that would had guaranteed that the story was good, but that not being there DID make the story worse."

Krile's story and Erenville's story feel unearned, unrewarding, because they simply are. Wuk Lamat barely has any affect on the entire segment of Living Memory at all. At some points I forgot she was even there. Wuk Lamat has less than nothing to do with those character stories in a meaningful sense. Is G'raha Tia's boat ride ruining Krile's story? I just think it's complete bs to be honest. Wuk Lamat is definitely emphatically present throughout most the game. Living Memory is the one place she isn't and you're seemingly implying she somehow ruined these stories. As for you bringing it up, no you didn't guarantee that the result would be good, but why else you bring it up if not to imply that? I will remind you as well my initial post never brought up her having less screen time as a problem, I'm talking about people claiming her 100% absence makes content good.

So yeah I would say I totally understand why the post got your attention. We will just need to agree to disagree, because you're basically defending the story at this point in ways that I find completely disingenuous (the Bakool Ja Ja thing is especially just lol levels of egregious).

[BadAtGames]

I don't think Wuk Lamat is a bad character, I think she's just the victim of bad writing. I feel like they had too much on their plate for this expansion, wanted to try something new, and didn't have time to do good, proper revisions. Just like how the first benchmark was in absolute shambles when it came out I imagine it was a similar situation when releasing Dawntrail, except they probably won't do anything about it now except try to improve in the future. (shrug)

[Riastrad]

Having an adult visual novel writer as one of the mains did not help matters.

[BadAtGames]

Having an adult visual novel writer as one of the mains did not help matters.

Wait wait wait hold the phone. Is this true? Where did you hear this?

[Riastrad]

Wait wait wait hold the phone. Is this true? Where did you hear this?

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm9476812/?ref_=tt_ov_wr

Prepare to cry.

[Raven2014]

I don't think Wuk Lamat is a bad character, I think she's just the victim of bad writing.

I'm curious why you make that distinction? If it's a real person, you can say something like she was a good person being in a bad situation. But Wuk is a fictional character, the writing is her. If the wring were good, you would have a good character.