Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

[Turtledeluxe]

I have no idea why you harp so much on fictional characters not being real. It's cringe. We know they are fictional characters, written by writers. No one thinks she's a real person. People criticize fictional characters, there are entire college courses on literary criticism, there are entire academic books on various fictional characters in Shakespeare plays. Fictional characters not being real is a given.

You can like or be fine with a writers work in some areas and have specific problem areas. I like Koana and Sphene, for example. But Wuk is another story. She was written so terribly, acted by a bad voice actor, and thrown in our faces for the entire MSQ we are sending the message we don't want to see this character again, or anyone else with her archetype or approach. I don't even want them to attempt writing more of her to try to redeem how utterly irritating she was to me.

Since I feel you need someone to state the obvious, this of course is all my opinion.

I have no idea why you call it harping. It's just a fact. Wuk Lamat isn't real. She can't "single handedly ruin a story". You can phrase things that way, and many have in this thread and others, it just means I personally perceive it as hate vs criticism.

Let me use an example. People hated Lyse. Writers certainly got that feedback right? Yet they created a new character who is like 2x her presence and a polar opposite disposition. When you tell writers you hate a character, it's less effective than just saying please don't write protagonists who replace the WoL in the story. Not for half a story, a full story or at all. I am not telling anyone to stop giving feedback. I am telling you that vitriol aimed at a character probably won't get you what you want.

Another thing I would say is that it's funny you brought up the VA because of course you did.

Objectively, Wuk Lamat being "shoved in your face"-- that's a writing issue. It's not a character issue. If you don't want any character playing that kind of role in the story, it has nothing to do with Wuk Lamat.

Also you can like part of the writing. The problem is saying "Without Wuk Lamat Kriles story would be good". You literally don't know that. You can say it, I'm just saying it's not true.

[ZephyrMenodora]

I have no idea why you call it harping. It's just a fact. Wuk Lamat isn't real. She can't "single handedly ruin a story". You can phrase things that way, and many have in this thread and others, it just means I personally perceive it as hate vs criticism.

Let me use an example. People hated Lyse. Writers certainly got that feedback right? Yet they created a new character who is like 2x her presence and a polar opposite disposition. When you tell writers you hate a character, it's less effective than just saying please don't write protagonists who replace the WoL in the story. Not for half a story, a full story or at all. I am not telling anyone to stop giving feedback. I am telling you that vitriol aimed at a character probably won't get you what you want.

Another thing I would say is that it's funny you brought up the VA because of course you did.

Objectively, Wuk Lamat being "shoved in your face"-- that's a writing issue. It's not a character issue. If you don't want any character playing that kind of role in the story, it has nothing to do with Wuk Lamat.

You mentioned 'Wuk Lamat isn't real" several times now, I recall just shaking my head as I have no idea what kind of point you think you are making with this, and commented as I saw you write this yet again. It's a pointless argument about semantics. People discuss characters, and don't need to preface every comment about a character with "the writers of the character". It's not how people discuss fiction - like I said, it's a given that a fictional character has a writer/designer behind the scenes.

Hatred of a character comes from the character's writing, design, and acting. All three are an unfortunate hurricane of terrible when it comes to Wuk Lamat - again in case it's not obvious - in my opinion. An improvement on any of the three would have helped. Here, for me, it's terrible from all directions. I mentioned the actors because FFXIV primary characters have actors, and how they perform also influences how much we like a character. I can find Graha annoying, but like how Jonathan Bailey sounds in the role, so his acting improved how much I liked the character even if the writing for him sometimes irks me. These characters in this medium don't exist in a vacuum, so "of course" I'd also mention the poor performance.

Since you aren't seeing that people's distaste of Wuk Lamat is layered and multifaceted, I'd also like to point out that people can:
1. Not want any ONE character taking over an entire expansion, whether they like the character or not,
2. Dislike everything about Wuk Lamat like I do, and
3. Find that the writers failed both in character writing and character allotment simultaneously, but due to how terrible Wuk us, the issue that she is omnipresent creates a far bigger issue in that she is so irritating, that she makes the overall experience worse than if someone liked the star of the story.

[Turtledeluxe]

You mentioned 'Wuk Lamat isn't real" several times now, I recall just shaking my head as I have no idea what kind of point you think you are making with this, and commented as I saw you write this yet again. It's a pointless argument about semantics. People discuss characters, and don't need to preface every comment about a character with "the writers of the character". It's not how people discuss fiction - like I said, it's a given that a fictional character has a writer/designer behind the scenes.

Hatred of a character comes from the character's writing, design, and acting. All three are an unfortunate hurricane of terrible when it comes to Wuk Lamat - again in case it's not obvious - in my opinion. An improvement on any of the three would have helped. Here, for me, it's terrible from all directions. I mentioned the actors because FFXIV primary characters have actors, and how they perform also influences how much we like a character. I can find Graha annoying, but like how Jonathan Bailey sounds in the role, so his acting improved how much I liked the character even if the writing for him sometimes irks me. These characters in this medium don't exist in a vacuum, so "of course" I'd also mention the poor performance.

Since you aren't seeing that people's distaste of Wuk Lamat is layered and multifaceted, I'd also like to point out that people can:
1. Not want any ONE character taking over an entire expansion, whether they like the character or not,
2. Dislike everything about Wuk Lamat like I do, and
3. Find that the writers failed both in character writing and character allotment simultaneously, but due to how terrible Wuk us, the issue that she is omnipresent creates a far bigger issue in that she is so irritating, that she makes the overall experience worse than if someone liked the star of the story.

My posts aren't really about people giving multifaceted feedback, it's moreso a reaction to this idea that one singular character ruins the story and that writing will automatically be good if she isn't around. Imo, this feedback is not only less effective but pretty harmful, because it gives the impression that if Wuk Lamat disappeared from DT, or disappears in the future, everything will automatically be ok. I've already seen people doing this with respect to the Arcadion or even within the MSQ itself when she's not around. People are welcome to submit that feedback and feel that way, but I how I feel is that there's a lot more work to be done beyond that. The writing problems with Wuk Lamat are pervasive and extend to characters we know already and love already. I don't think it has to do with any characters, including Wuk Lamat, I think it has to do with how they are used and how they are written.

Hating a character is any given person's personal agenda. There can be reasons to hate them-- they can be engineered as such. It can also be unintended, which is where I would say Wuk Lamat falls. I just don't think, as I said, she's the main problem with DT, she's just the most present character so it makes it easy to make her this symbol of hate for the expansion. I think that's a mistake, but everyone can make their own choices.

[ZephyrMenodora]

My posts aren't really about people giving multifaceted feedback, it's moreso a reaction to this idea that one singular character ruins the story and that writing will automatically be good if she isn't around. Imo, this feedback is not only less effective but pretty harmful, because it gives the impression that if Wuk Lamat disappeared from DT, or disappears in the future, everything will automatically be ok. I've already seen people doing this with respect to the Arcadion or even within the MSQ itself when she's not around. People are welcome to submit that feedback and feel that way, but I how I feel is that there's a lot more work to be done beyond that. The writing problems with Wuk Lamat are pervasive and extend to characters we know already and love already. I don't think it has to do with any characters, including Wuk Lamat, I think it has to do with how they are used and how they are written.

No, it wouldn't fix everything. Someone wrote this character. Someone approved of her design and extensive use in the story. Someone approved Sena's hire and ear-plug inspiring performance reaching our ears.

But the disappearance of Wuk Lamat would be a good start.

[chizLemons]

My posts aren't really about people giving multifaceted feedback, it's moreso a reaction to this idea that one singular character ruins the story and that writing will automatically be good if she isn't around. Imo, this feedback is not only less effective but pretty harmful, because it gives the impression that if Wuk Lamat disappeared from DT, or disappears in the future, everything will automatically be ok. I've already seen people doing this with respect to the Arcadion or even within the MSQ itself when she's not around. People are welcome to submit that feedback and feel that way, but I how I feel is that there's a lot more work to be done beyond that. The writing problems with Wuk Lamat are pervasive and extend to characters we know already and love already. I don't think it has to do with any characters, including Wuk Lamat, I think it has to do with how they are used and how they are written.

There's a few wonderful threads out there that go into the other issues, about character writing and other problems on the story. Instead of coming to complain about people complaining about a character, in a thread for complaining about the character, maybe post and give more attention to those threads instead? I agree, the problem goes much beyond Wuk Lamat. BUT Wuk Lamat IS one of the problems - not only the way she is written as a character, but how much she is there, her purpose, the consequences of her actions and what happens around her during the story. Maybe not the only problem, as the title of the post implies, but there's better ways for you to get your point across.

Saying "Wuk Lamat isn't real" isn't helping your point and also has nothing to do with what you just said.

[Voidmage]

I have no idea why you call it harping. It's just a fact. Wuk Lamat isn't real. She can't "single handedly ruin a story". You can phrase things that way, and many have in this thread and others, it just means I personally perceive it as hate vs criticism.

A character doesn't have to be real to be regarded as ruining a story. That's called the Scrappy.

Mind you I don't know if Wuk Lamat ruins the story alone because thats subjective (for me she does) but she is probably the biggest factor for those who dislike the MSQ.

Let me use an example. People hated Lyse. Writers certainly got that feedback right? Yet they created a new character who is like 2x her presence and a polar opposite disposition. When you tell writers you hate a character, it's less effective than just saying please don't write protagonists who replace the WoL in the story. Not for half a story, a full story or at all. I am not telling anyone to stop giving feedback. I am telling you that vitriol aimed at a character probably won't get you what you want.

We are just customers and fans. We don't need to write an essay for criticism.
The devs know that people hate a character. How they answer that is their problem. There is normaly an entire department for stuff like that.
Saying "hey Square, this character sucks and ruins the story" shouldn't be answered with "understood, here have another character that's even worse then before".
They get payed to think themself.

Also there have been entire threads about what the problems are even in this thread here itself.
If the devs don't see the reasons then they don't want to see them.

[LyraShu]

I have no idea why you call it harping. It's just a fact. Wuk Lamat isn't real. She can't "single handedly ruin a story". You can phrase things that way, and many have in this thread and others, it just means I personally perceive it as hate vs criticism.

Let me use an example. People hated Lyse. Writers certainly got that feedback right? Yet they created a new character who is like 2x her presence and a polar opposite disposition. When you tell writers you hate a character, it's less effective than just saying please don't write protagonists who replace the WoL in the story. Not for half a story, a full story or at all. I am not telling anyone to stop giving feedback. I am telling you that vitriol aimed at a character probably won't get you what you want.

Another thing I would say is that it's funny you brought up the VA because of course you did.

Objectively, Wuk Lamat being "shoved in your face"-- that's a writing issue. It's not a character issue. If you don't want any character playing that kind of role in the story, it has nothing to do with Wuk Lamat.

Also you can like part of the writing. The problem is saying "Without Wuk Lamat Kriles story would be good". You literally don't know that. You can say it, I'm just saying it's not true.

Lol, if you think "single handedly ruin a story" is being hateful, then I can only say that I am super happy that you have had a nice time in life

You also seem to be hung up on semantics, when people just want to share their viewpoints and thoughts. Right or wrong, it doesn't actually matter. Remember, these are just words on a screen to you so it's not like you should worry that much.

Regardless, I hope you have a great day!~

[Turtledeluxe]

You also seem to be hung up on semantics, when people just want to share their viewpoints and thoughts. Right or wrong, it doesn't actually matter. Remember, these are just words on a screen to you so it's not like you should worry that much.

Regardless, I hope you have a great day!~

Patronizing aside, statements come from conscious human beings and they're subject to analysis. If what I am saying doesn't apply to your personal criticism, I'm not sure why it would bother you for me to point out that Wuk Lamat is not real. I've seen posts giving me the impression that people are getting caught up in the hype of hating the character, and that is why I am saying that. I do not literally think people believe she is real, but rather that they talk about her like she is. Part of it is what you are saying-- just semantics and just phrasing. I'm only hoping to elaborate on what I perceive to be, just hating.

We are just customers and fans. We don't need to write an essay for criticism.
The devs know that people hate a character. How they answer that is their problem. There is normaly an entire department for stuff like that.
Saying "hey Square, this character sucks and ruins the story" shouldn't be answered with "understood, here have another character that's even worse then before".
They get payed to think themself.

Also there have been entire threads about what the problems are even in this thread here itself.
If the devs don't see the reasons then they don't want to see them.

All I know is that given the feedback over the years, we still got DT. So, obviously there's more nuanced discussion to be had. And that is what I am pushing for. The problems here extend well beyond Wuk Lamat. Wuk Lamat is just the most obvious one because she's so persistent in the story.

I wonder how many more times I am going to have to explain, that when I say she is not real, it is more of a commentary on how comments come across vs what their intention is. Regarding Wuk Lamat being removed as being some kind of "good start"-- that personally doesn't interest me and I don't find it very useful. I can imagine DT without any one character and I still think it would be average at best, so to me it comes across as wishful thinking/futile. That's just my opinion.