Feedback: Dawntrail MSQ dungeon difficulty

[Mlem]

Why do a lot of those posts advocating for harder content need to be so rude and/or condescending? There's enough hard content in the game, it's almost as if you don't want any casual players in the game anymore, or as if those players are beneath you?

There are people in this world, believe it or not, who just want to have fun because it's just a game. Just fun. They don't want to be frustrated by a ton of wipes, don't want to invest hours to learn exactly where to stand in every dungeon at what mechanic, and they certainly don't want a game to be a second job. I for one rather invest time in getting better at my real life job than wiping in some MSQ-dungeon. Also, the amount of dungeons in the game is huge, and I cannot even remember all the mechanics - so most of them being not that hard is actually a good thing.

But the solution to the problem can be very easy, there's multiple possibilities:
- Let the MSQ-dungeons, or in general any dungeon we're forced to do, be easy, and make the optional ones hard. For me for example, the difficulty level of EW was just enough (minus a few bosses where I still struggle with some mechanics).
- Make the msq-dungeons easy and implement a "expert"-version of those dungeons. Should not be that big of a problem.

There, problem solved. You guys can have your hard content, and us casuals can have the easier stuff.

What amazes me is the resistance to any potential solution to the problem, up to throwing around "I bet you use Very Easy on solo duties" as an insult. (Would implementing a leaderboard on those in exchange make you all feel better?) And it's not even entire dungeons as a whole, really; it's just a handful of bosses where I've seen people get frustrated. It's also not the whole community by a long shot. I've not yet been in a party that was anything but supportive of one another or at least grimly determined in DT, so it's just this little weird slice of the forum. In actual fact, the game's taught me a bit lately, and what I've learned has not been game mechanics, but more awareness of potential accessibility issues facing other players.

Having an easy mode is not going to sully the chastity of your dungeon. Honestly, I would prefer a deeper fundamental change in design philosophy going forward, like a partial or total departure from dungeons being inserted into the story just to fill a quota. IMO you will never square the circle of i) a dungeon everyone wants to just clear once; and ii) a dungeon people love to run daily that stays spicy. It would've been great if, at regular intervals, some NPC would just say "Hey, we really should be getting on with saving the universe again, but gosh if I'm not curious about that awful looking tomb with the mist wall!" And then that could be as hard as you please and I'd be fully behind that.

But throwing on an easy and very easy mode buff and cleaning up the dummies' movements in Duty Support would be a good and easy start.

[Saraide]

If you're struggling then I dont suggest going with trusts since all responsibility is on you. Just queue up on DPS and get carried through, if you can handle aoeing down trash mobs then you're already doing better than like half of the players in this game.

[Naryoril]

Why do a lot of those posts advocating for harder content need to be so rude and/or condescending? There's enough hard content in the game, it's almost as if you don't want any casual players in the game anymore, or as if those players are beneath you?

There are people in this world, believe it or not, who just want to have fun because it's just a game. Just fun. They don't want to be frustrated by a ton of wipes, don't want to invest hours to learn exactly where to stand in every dungeon at what mechanic, and they certainly don't want a game to be a second job. I for one rather invest time in getting better at my real life job than wiping in some MSQ-dungeon. Also, the amount of dungeons in the game is huge, and I cannot even remember all the mechanics - so most of them being not that hard is actually a good thing.

But the solution to the problem can be very easy, there's multiple possibilities:
- Let the MSQ-dungeons, or in general any dungeon we're forced to do, be easy, and make the optional ones hard. For me for example, the difficulty level of EW was just enough (minus a few bosses where I still struggle with some mechanics).
- Make the msq-dungeons easy and implement a "expert"-version of those dungeons. Should not be that big of a problem.

There, problem solved. You guys can have your hard content, and us casuals can have the easier stuff.

You don't even need to implement easy and hard modes of the dungeons. The only necessary change is to allow the NPCs to ress the player instead of immediately failing. If they want to keep at least some challenge (since otherwise you could simply just go afk as a DPS), limit it to 3 resses a fight or something like that.

[EponaTBHSMH]

I agree with the poster above me, the only thing trusts are good for during bosses fight are getting to the safe spots for mechanics, sometimes they move in advance but sometimes they also move at the last second, so playing with them requires you to actually understand the mechanics if you don't wanna waste time wiping. Those mechanics arent really reaction heavy, they mostly have tells that are different from just an orange puddle on the floor, its usually + or O, electricity lines, RP text for the last boss, and in general paying attention to surroundings those are the things that need to be reacted and there's usually some time between when those things get on screen and when the mechanic resolves

Duty finder might honestly be the better option for the OP, you get punished less for stacking vulns or dying, you can get healed/res'd and it will make the dungeon take 20-30mins

Easy mode is also an option but expect patches/expac to take longer if those would be implemented

[Vivahoja]

I'm completely capable of learning and reacting to mechanics, but there needs to be time to react. By the time you see the telegraph on the ground in these fights, it's already too late to get to where you need to be!

Sorry to hear you're struggling, however, no mechanics that are mandatory to progress through the story require particularly fast reactions. (The average human reaction time is 250ms and I would be hard pressed to find a mechanic that doesn't give you multitudes of thats). May I suggest you look at the mechanics tell to solve it BEFORE it happens instead of trying to solely react to the resolution? Beyond that, trusts are more punishing since you cannot afford to die. Perhaps if you'd like to engage in multiplayer in this MMO and foster collaborative play and friendship you would do better!

[Mlem]

Easy mode is also an option but expect patches/expac to take longer if those would be implemented

Why would it? Just slap on a buff that quarters the damage taken and doubles the damage dealt. Easy. It's just more Echo, it already exists, it'll take the devs literally no effort. Nobody's asking for some weird mechanical adjustment here, it's just "I would like to clear this dungeon one time to carry on with the story."

[EponaTBHSMH]

Why would it? Just slap on a buff that quarters the damage taken and doubles the damage dealt. Easy. It's just more Echo, it already exists, it'll take the devs literally no effort. Nobody's asking for some weird mechanical adjustment here, it's just "I would like to clear this dungeon one time to carry on with the story."

I guess that works too actually

[Vivahoja]

My days of hardcore mythic/savage raiding are behind me

Oh also, you must have forgotten it, but you, at some point, made the decision to set your achievements to public, and you have not completed a single Savage fight or Extreme fight except for significantly delayed, unsync'd ARR Primals. May I suggest you spend the time you used on writing up this fairy tale on looking at dungeon bosses instead? You will fare much better! <3

[Therad_Yaeger]

This is such a non-issue. The game is not heading in a "Dark Souls direction". The dungeon design/difficulty has remained pretty much the same since ARR. If you are running a dungeon for the first time, sure it is a challenge if you don't know what is coming and it's OK to wipe. You learn from your mistakes, try again, and you'll eventually clear the dungeon.

But I should point out - this is a Level 100 dungeon - not counting side content, there are 58 MSQ dungeons, 29 MSQ Trials and 3 MSQ Alliance Raids (Crystal Tower) all before this final Dungeon. Unless you used a skip from the Online Store to play Dawntrail, or have some disability that prevents you from playing properly/well, there is no excuse for not being able to clear a MSQ dungeon. This is quite literally the easiest battle content in the entire game.

If you are still struggling, here is a breakdown of boss mechanics for this dungeon this doesn't include Boss 3 in case you don't want to be spoiled.

Boss 1: Boss sits static in the north of the arena. It will do a large frontal cleave, which you can dodge by running to it's sides, as well as side cleaves, which you can dodge by running to it's front. Very simple. It then starts doing it's main mechanic: a "U" shape of telegraphed AOES. The Cross sign does line AOEs in a cross pattern, the Circle is a Dynamo/In mechanic. Again very simple. You watch the order they spawn and avoid the AOEs and run into the safe zones. It will then start combining this with the Front and Side cleaves - now you need to pay attention to the order of AOEs and where you need to dodge. Finally, a combination of Tankbuster/Stack and spread AOEs will also appear. All of this is stuff you will have done before in previous fights. Nothing here is new, just another application of the same mechanics. Now I haven't done this with Trusts, but if I were to, I would make sure not to blindly follow the NPCs.

Boss 2: This boss will "break itself apart" and use it's body to form a triangle in half the arena - stay out of this triangle. It will also do a middle line AOE or side AOEs based on the direction it is facing - just go into the opposite section depending on which one it is doing. Finally there are line AOEs from the north, with 1 or 2 columns that are safe, as well as Spread AOEs - make sure to stand in the safe column and spread appropriately. All very simple stuff. The difficulty comes from the combination of mechanics, however they are simple enough to understand and resolve without issue.

(Apologies if I missed mechanics, don't have the game open as I type this to check)

Overall, this dungeon is no more difficult than anything that has come before it. It seems to me that you have an unwillingness to learn which is hindering you from the playing the game. Dungeon design is fine, and does not need a difficulty setting - you should have the skillset by now clear this sort of content, and if you can't? Then perhaps you should play something else.

[PaendeoLilli]

With the content being an expert level dungeon, I'd expect a level of difficulty to it. I too am an older gamer but have been gaming for 20+ years and don't see an issue. I know this is just my experience and I can't speak for others but I personally hated dungeons were you could just go in close your eyes and mindlessly pull with no effort. This dungeon keeps me engaged and on my toe's to not get bored or lose interest I feel like I can go back and do this dungeon and still enjoy it due to it's difficulty instead of me getting in the dungeon and thinking ugh it's just this boring dungeon again.