Character disconnect and disappointing Player Agency in Dawntrail's MSQ [Spoilers]

[fioravictorine]

Its not shifting the topic. I am pointing out a disconnect by making a comparison. It isn't moving the goalposts to point to another expansion that had a fairly similar structure (road trip with a learning moment for a young NPC, this time Alphinauld, learning how to be a leader and hero) that was also linear and forced you to cheerlead the character. If you liked HW but didn't like DT, it probably means you are ok with being a cheerleader and some aspect of being a cheerleader for Alphinauld felt better than Wuk Lamat, even though you have more scenes where Wuk Lamat asks you or the party what to do than in HW.

I think you perhaps pointed out what is important for you, which is feeling like your doing the heavy lifting. It is very fair to point out that DT's first half is VERY low stakes. So even though your always being pointed at a problem or basically directed by the gaggle of NPCs, in HW its stuff like 'Alphinauld figures out you need to do this awesome thing' while in DT its 'Erinvelle figures out you need 5 bear asses.' Then in the back half once she grows determined and the stakes are high she is also a lot more assertive (And also like low key some of the plot construction of THAT half isn't great).

As for moments you actually mentored Wuk Lamat or guided her, most of the trading questline, and the immediate aftermath of the attack where you talk to her about the burden of being someone who can help but sometimes fails. She also basically never comes up with the idea on how to progress any of the challenges save for the last one and the one with the festival. Usually its Erinvelle who actually leads the way with his cultural knowledge that guides Wuk Lamat towards the right answer, its his main purpose in the first half of the story as her more traveled childhood friend. She is actually a *really* passive and uncertain charactrer, especially outside of voiced cutscenes.

Um no, I think you are making an unfair comparison. We are not the 'mentor figure' to anyone in those expansions, and HW is not an Alphinaud-as-MC only expansion.

Also the examples you cited are pretty superficial and you even brought in Erenville. Like I said in the trading questline, she could've asked anyone else and arrive in the same conclusion by herself. So I ask again, how is the WoL a mentor figure to Wuk Lamat?

[dezzmont]

Um no, I think you are making an unfair comparison. We are not the 'mentor figure' to anyone in those expansions, and HW is not an Alphinaud-as-MC only expansion.

Also the examples you cited are pretty superficial and you even brought in Erenville. Like I said in the trading questline, she could've asked anyone else and arrive in the same conclusion by herself. So I ask again, how is the WoL a mentor figure to Wuk Lamat?

They are superficial because our involvement with literally every plot is superficial. We literally can only talk to people by making a choice of 2-3 dialogue choices that can't ever alter the actual plot. "That isn't a good enough example" isn't an actual counter-argument, the fact is the story does establish that Wuk Lamat looks up to us and looks to us for guidance and our influence does change how she views the world.

As for HW, the first half is pretty explicitly a coming of age story for Alphinauld where he comes into his own and realizes what he should do after the disaster of the Crystal Braves and his confidence is utterly shattered. Its why the firewood scene (which is mostly Estinien's moment with him, not yours) is so legendary. He freaks out utterly over being able to accomplish ANYTHING, and that road trip half culminates with the two adults with him breaking and him meanwhile becoming more resolved. Our involvement in that story is pretty much cheerleading Alphinauld, and he would have gotten there without us. But it wasn't pointless either, and it sets him up for the ultimate end of the story where he (and you) rescue Estinien by refusing to give in to cynicism. Alphinauld, low key, was the main character of HW, he was the one with an arc who grew and changed. It just did a good job of hiding that by having you fight a big dragon. He even shoves into the the ultimate moment of triumph just like Wuk Lamat, but in a cutscene!

A really big difference between the two is the stakes of the 'coming of age' portion (again, cool adventures ending a horrible war vs bear asses). The other is the back half of DT is... not the strongest IMO, which is a problem when your first half is trying to set up a secret lead for the second and the second half just isn't great, which does a lot more to hurt Wuk Lamat as a character in my opinion than 'we support her' which like... duh of course we do. That is literally what we do as the WoL.

[fioravictorine]

They are superficial because our involvement with literally every plot is superficial. We literally can only talk to people by making a choice of 2-3 dialogue choices that can't ever alter the actual plot. "That isn't a good enough example" isn't an actual counter-argument, the fact is the story does establish that Wuk Lamat looks up to us and looks to us for guidance and our influence does change how she views the world.

As for HW, the first half is pretty explicitly a coming of age story for Alphinauld where he comes into his own and realizes what he should do after the disaster of the Crystal Braves and his confidence is utterly shattered. Its why the firewood scene is so legendary. He freaks out utterly over being able to accomplish ANYTHING, and that road trip half culminates with the two adults with him breaking and him meanwhile becoming more resolved. Our involvement in that story is pretty much cheerleading Alphinauld, and he would have gotten there without us. But it wasn't pointless either.

I duno, you keep strawmanning away from my question on 'Wuk's mentor figure' so I guess it's useless to discuss further with you. Have a good day

[dezzmont]

I duno, you keep strawmanning away from my question on 'Wuk's mentor figure' so I guess it's useless to discuss further with you. Have a good day

"The WOL is not a mentor figure"

"Yes they are"

"No they aren't name a time"

"These 3 times"

"I don't like these 3 times"

"These 3 times are pretty similar to other liked parts of the story where the WoL is a mentor figure"

"Strawman"

Lol what? An argument you disagree with doesn't have to be fallacious, especially against something entirely opinion based. You could just say 'I disagree' rather than misusing the term strawman.

You can argue that the story of us being a mentor isn't good or well done. But, again, its literally part of the text. It happens. "How do I handle this situation" "Here is how" "Thanks I learned a lesson" is a pretty clear cut example of what is intended to be mentorship.

[fioravictorine]

"The WOL is not a mentor figure"

"Yes they are"

"No they aren't name a time"

"These 3 times"

"I don't like these 3 times"

"These 3 times are pretty similar to other liked parts of the story where the WoL is a mentor figure"

"Strawman"

Lol what? An argument you disagree with doesn't have to be fallacious, especially against something entirely opinion based. You could just say 'I disagree' rather than misusing the term strawman.

You can argue that the story of us being a mentor isn't good or well done. But, again, its literally part of the text. It happens. "How do I handle this situation" "Here is how" "Thanks I learned a lesson" is a pretty clear cut example of what is intended to be mentorship.

Oh, wasn't that what you were doing? You keep bringing up Alphi and HW despite it has nothing to do with 'WoL being a mentor figure to Wuk Lamat' which is literally what many Wuk lovers are parroting

If you phrase this 'mentorship' as being so poorly done to the point it appears near non-existent - then yeah, we both might have something to agree on

[Zackneifein]

"The WOL is not a mentor figure"

"Yes they are"

"No they aren't name a time"

"These 3 times"

"I don't like these 3 times"

"These 3 times are pretty similar to other liked parts of the story where the WoL is a mentor figure"

"Strawman"

Lol what? An argument you disagree with doesn't have to be fallacious, especially against something entirely opinion based. You could just say 'I disagree' rather than misusing the term strawman.

You can argue that the story of us being a mentor isn't good or well done. But, again, its literally part of the text. It happens. "How do I handle this situation" "Here is how" "Thanks I learned a lesson" is a pretty clear cut example of what is intended to be mentorship.

We are "said" that we are a "mentor", but we aren't shown to be one in a satisfaying manner and that's the problem.

The WoL don't give advice to Wuk Lamat based on their experiences (what a good mentor should do) but common one that could be displayed on a cheap mug at best. They doesn't even show why they could be a mentor since our reputation doesn't matter in Tural. In all fictions where there is one, a mentor has moments to shine alone, what we could call "badass moments", we barely have one of them during Wuk Lamat "trials", when we are marching menacingly toward Bakool Ja Ja ignoring his goons.

They don't reprimand her, never, even when she objectively did wrong. Just think how interesting it would have been if it's not to her father, but to her that they said "You aren't ready yet", this could have been the trigger to her evolution. But no, the fact is that she doesn't need a mentor figure since she finds all the answers by herself at the end and everyone, except Zoraal Ja, end up falling in love with her within seconds, even people her father failed to pacify in 80 years.

If the WoL was truly written has a mentor, a good one and Wuk Lamat was shown in need of one, a lot of the bitterness of Wuk Lamat from some players would disappear since the WoL would have been one of the driving forces behind her evolution. We would have mattered in her story.
And if the WoL had some other moments to shine, her intervention during the last trial would have felt more deserved.

A lot of what's wrong with this expansion is that they failed to depict the WoL as a mentor, and by failing that, the WoL doesn't have agency and importance anymore, resulting in this "I'm just the cameraman of Wuk Lamat story" feeling. It's also why a lot of people don't like Vaan and Penelo in FFXII.