Character disconnect and disappointing Player Agency in Dawntrail's MSQ [Spoilers]

[Papayatar]

I really missed being snarky and actually having the Scions and other relevant NPCs surprised or shocked at the snark. Agreeing that

The time this disconnect hit me hardest was when Wuk Lamat asked me to refer to her as "lamaty'i", a term of endearment reserved for family. I had not particularly enjoyed much of my time glued to the third promise, so I opted to respond with the usually delightful "..." option expecting at least a somewhat snide comment. Instead, one of the Scions, a character I care for and trust, informs Wuk my character is "at a loss for words" for being asked this.

Super agreeing with this! I remember when that happened I was like, yeah I’m at a loss for words because we’re not friends like that. Not because I’m just so happy and grateful the Princess is letting me use her nickname. I’m pretty sure any options we got after that if her nickname was used in the option I picked anything but that. Even if it was wildly out of character for my WoL, it’d still make more sense than calling her Lamaty’i.

Also as I go through this again on my alts, and maybe Elden Ring DLC is leaking into my thoughts lol, but treating how WoL (and the Scions to tbh) like they’ve been charmed/bewitched by Wuk Lamat into positivity puppets for her makes it a little more like some horror game and kinda makes why everyone is not themselves a tad bit more palatable. Or IDK another media comparison maybe like we’re Agatha from WandaVision and the next MSQ patches will be our spin off series where we’re free from Wuk and get to go on a journey to return to at minimum being an Adventurer and not an emotional support WoL.

[Dogempire]

There was a thread on reddit that honestly points to a large part of why I didn't enjoy MSQ much, Wuk Lamat aside, and it was the fact that we literally just STAND AROUND whenever shit is going down.

We just defeated Zarool Ja and Sphere is walking towards the extremely powerful relic lying on the ground? Better let her walk through the group and stare menacingly instead of grabbing her and being like "The hell are you doing?"

Zarool Ja just fatally wounded Gulool Ja Ja? Let's just watch him die since it's not like we're specced to a class that literally has the ability to heal people by rewinding time/altering their fate.

Wuk Lamat getting kidnapped in plain sight of literally every single scion? Eh, let's just look away so we have to do some quests where we have to rescue Wuk Lamat instead of talk to her and really spice things up.

Not to mention how suddenly we become powerless when the enemy takes a hostage, like oh no, some low-level lizards are holding Wookie's father hostage, sure wish I had Rescue or Cover or some sort of gapcloser or barrier skill so I can close the gap and one shot them. No? Well, I guess it makes sense since Wookie needs her 1000x powerup, and a 5 minute duty against a slightly less pathetic low level threat is enough to explain it away.

Just, god, can we actually do something aside from standing around and talking to Wuk Lamat? It's like the Devs went "Sorry, we don't have the budget for you to do something, but you have another dungeon in 2 levels so you can do something then. Battle quest? Sorry, no budget for that either, also no budget for us to make you use an animation and our writers aren't talented enough to make a situation that doesn't require you to stand around for the bad thing to unfold."

[Zelda206]

Instant fix to the storyline:

Wuk Lamat presents all of us to the Dawnservant and he goes "I see you, warrior", turns to Wuk Lamat and says "You may select two from those you have assembled, my daughter, but this one will not be partaking in any active party partaking in the Rite." He'd then request us to remain behind after Wuk Lamat walks off disappointed and confused. "Warrior", he would say, "I want you to monitor all four of the candidates from afar; this Rite was designed to cultivate a leader, and all four of them show imbalance and are unfit to fully understand the lessons I learned before I was Dawnservant. I will give you full reign of the island so that you may read into the land and its cultures while preventing the young ones from killing each other should it come to that. If and when you are compelled to step in, see it done. I'm sure that if my brother was awake, he would agree." And then you proceed to monitor and talk with your scattered companions and the four contestants, coming across each of them and sharing your knowledge and wisdom to better prepare them for their challenges without being forced to cheerlead Wuk Lamat EXCLUSIVELY while getting to know the other three in their own ways. Valigardmanda would be released when all four of them came to a heated argument, and the consequences of their outburst would release the giant beast. We, as a true mentor, would intervene and demand all four of them fight alongside you to fix their mistake and save the nation upon vanquish, et cetera et cetera. Many ways this story could have been great instead of heavily one-sided to paint a third-grader's perspective of how people interact with one another.

[ThorneDynasty]

There was a thread on reddit that honestly points to a large part of why I didn't enjoy MSQ much, Wuk Lamat aside, and it was the fact that we literally just STAND AROUND whenever shit is going down.

We just defeated Zarool Ja and Sphere is walking towards the extremely powerful relic lying on the ground? Better let her walk through the group and stare menacingly instead of grabbing her and being like "The hell are you doing?"

Zarool Ja just fatally wounded Gulool Ja Ja? Let's just watch him die since it's not like we're specced to a class that literally has the ability to heal people by rewinding time/altering their fate.

Wuk Lamat getting kidnapped in plain sight of literally every single scion? Eh, let's just look away so we have to do some quests where we have to rescue Wuk Lamat instead of talk to her and really spice things up.

Not to mention how suddenly we become powerless when the enemy takes a hostage, like oh no, some low-level lizards are holding Wookie's father hostage, sure wish I had Rescue or Cover or some sort of gapcloser or barrier skill so I can close the gap and one shot them. No? Well, I guess it makes sense since Wookie needs her 1000x powerup, and a 5 minute duty against a slightly less pathetic low level threat is enough to explain it away.

Just, god, can we actually do something aside from standing around and talking to Wuk Lamat? It's like the Devs went "Sorry, we don't have the budget for you to do something, but you have another dungeon in 2 levels so you can do something then. Battle quest? Sorry, no budget for that either, also no budget for us to make you use an animation and our writers aren't talented enough to make a situation that doesn't require you to stand around for the bad thing to unfold."

The baffling thing is the role-quests have WoL be more animated. MSQ does "pull out weapon, told to sit down" over and over, while in the role quests WoL is actually the one emoting other characters to stand down when we are exactly in the same kind of hostage situation the MSQ uses as an excuse to make the character completely passive.

[Granyala]

[B][SIZE="3"]Had my character opted not to support Wuk Lamat in her claim for the throne, what would have changed?

• The four claimants would have done their trials, and then Gulool Ja Ja would probably have decided none of them were fit to rule.
• Most of the people we helped in the trials all were more than able to fix their own problems, they didn't need us present to fix their fields, find them workers, or cook their local dish. Even if they needed actual help, I am certain Koana could have helped.
• There would have been harsh consequences for Bakool Ja Ja's antics.
• Zoraal Ja would have thrown a tantrum, but he wouldn't have had a cheat death device, nor would Yyasulani have been destroyed.

So your assumption is that everyone would have been nuked by Galool Ja Ja's shade and none of them would have found the gate?
Not sure if I'd concur with that assessment.

Koana / Bakool-Ja Ja would possibly have been able to do that and then they'd found the Gate and the story would have unfolded in very much the same way.

To say that it is our fault that Yusalaani gets blasted is absurd.

[Seiki_Kisaki]

Not to mention how suddenly we become powerless when the enemy takes a hostage, like oh no, some low-level lizards are holding Wookie's father hostage, sure wish I had Rescue or Cover or some sort of gapcloser or barrier skill so I can close the gap and one shot them. No? Well, I guess it makes sense since Wookie needs her 1000x powerup, and a 5 minute duty against a slightly less pathetic low level threat is enough to explain it away."

So this is why we lost Plunge and Rough Divide...

[Voidmage]

So your assumption is that everyone would have been nuked by Galool Ja Ja's shade and none of them would have found the gate?
Not sure if I'd concur with that assessment.

Koana / Bakool-Ja Ja would possibly have been able to do that and then they'd found the Gate and the story would have unfolded in very much the same way.

To say that it is our fault that Yusalaani gets blasted is absurd.

Exactly.
The story would have been overall the same.
Valigarmanda was weakened and not only is it ever mentioned that we were critical to the victory or even did anything more then the others, the wandering Minstrel even just calls us Wuk Lamats other dudes more or less.

The dungeons would have been the same.
Wuk Lamat would have been the same.
I bet even the whole Wild West bracelet scene would have not changed.

The only thing that could have been different is Krile and her parents because we tell her who they are and maybe, maybe the final boss. But even later would have probably been defeated because either than red or Estinien would have went with the others.

Heck, without us maybe even Bagool JaJa would have teamed up with them.

[dezzmont]

I really liked the story, but I understand why some didn't.

I will note a lot of stories don't necessarily need the main protagonist. In Shadowbringers and Endwalker we are important and special, but I would say Heavensward, Stormblood, and ARR would not be especially different if not for us. If we sat out many of the events would go rougly the same save for how our presence inspires others to act, which is exactly what happens in Dawntrail. Stories are not just a literal sequence of events where the importance of a character is their strict utility in changing the outcome of events, characters have thematic importance too. I think most people like Erenville and he basically does absolutely nothing in the story. If he was gone almost no events change but the entire story becomes worse.

Our imporance in Dawntrail was as a mentor figure for Wuk Lamat, a character going through a pretty classic coming of age story. We basically got to be what Thancred was to Ryne, and I don't think many would say Thancred was pointless in that story arc. Likewise, the fact all these people's problems would be kinda solved on their own isn't the point (and also isn't true, the resolution of blessed siblings and the redemption of Bakool Ja would *definitely* not have happened without Wuk Lamat being there with some lessons she learned from the WoL, and that is a major status quo change for the nation), the point is that it illustrates a philosophy the game has about leadership through Wuk Lamat learning it. Its... honestly a pretty basic narrative, "the test is a lesson," but it is a tried and true narrative and saying "the story would be the same if everyone failed the test because everyone actually didn't strictly need help" strikes me as an almost... Cinema Sins style 'plothole ding' complaint that ignores how narratives work.

The problem is that isn't the story arc we really got signed up for. We were her champion before her dad basically laid his intentions bare to us, giving us secret information and making us basically insiders on the trial. It probably would go a lot better for those not 100% on board with Wuk Lamat if that scene came way earlier in the story (ex: We agree to go with her to the New World but have a talk with her father basically immediately after the initial tour). It gives a good context to why the WoL is doing what they are doing even if they don't support Wuk Lamat, because they know if she isn't actually worthy she won't win and they are merely helping her grow to potentially be worthy. If you like Wuk Lamat (I did) that isn't necessary, but it helps justify way better why a Wuk Lamat skeptic would be running around helping her realize what being a leader actually is.

As for the final scene, I agree it is a bit rough that Wuk Lamat jumps in. It would have been better if all the characters with you did it, even if Wuk Lamat got top billing, or at least Krile also interceding so its more about the characters with a strong connection to Alexandria being there for the end.

[Karkarov]

I really liked the story, but I understand why some didn't.
...Our imporance in Dawntrail was as a mentor figure for Wuk Lamat, a character going through a pretty classic coming of age story. We basically got to be what Thancred was to Ryne, and I don't think many would say Thancred was pointless in that story arc. Likewise, the fact all these people's problems would be kinda solved on their own isn't the point (and also isn't true, the resolution of blessed siblings and the redemption of Bakool Ja would *definitely* not have happened without Wuk Lamat being there with some lessons she learned from the WoL, and that is a major status quo change for the nation), the point is that it illustrates a philosophy the game has about leadership through Wuk Lamat learning it. Its... honestly a pretty basic narrative, "the test is a lesson," but it is a tried and true narrative and saying "the story would be the same if everyone failed the test because everyone actually didn't strictly need help" strikes me as very poor media literacy, because the vast majority of stories are about characters learning and growing and have events that would not really be important to resolve if not for the characters. ...

Where in this story do you mentor jack? You don't ever once give any advice or say anything the other characters act on. You are just there to "agree with Wuk Lamat". The only time in the MSQ you get a chance to disagree with her, you are immediately overruled by the scions and told point blank... "We should do what Wuk Lamat want's, after all we are only here to support her."

[fioravictorine]

Our imporance in Dawntrail was as a mentor figure for Wuk Lamat, a character going through a pretty classic coming of age story. We basically got to be what Thancred was to Ryne, and I don't think many would say Thancred was pointless in that story arc. Likewise, the fact all these people's problems would be kinda solved on their own isn't the point (and also isn't true, the resolution of blessed siblings and the redemption of Bakool Ja would *definitely* not have happened without Wuk Lamat being there with some lessons she learned from the WoL, and that is a major status quo change for the nation), the point is that it illustrates a philosophy the game has about leadership through Wuk Lamat learning it. Its... honestly a pretty basic narrative, "the test is a lesson," but it is a tried and true narrative and saying "the story would be the same if everyone failed the test because everyone actually didn't strictly need help" strikes me as an almost... Cinema Sins style 'plothole ding' complaint that ignores how narratives work.

Huh, are you sure we are her mentor? Or did you mistype 'Cheerleading Slave' ? This 'mentor figure' is being used by Dawntrail defenders alot