CC & The Big Four

[Vandi]

I agree with RPR it needs some more dmg buffs

PLD wounds hurt to have more AOEs but other then that it’s really good

DNC I curious as to how you playing that you see dmg as the only asset DNC is actually really powerful if you aren’t looking to 0-100 someone but aid you team snipe executions and precise AOEs can turn a fight your not a liability cause you can’t 1v1 everyone and in what world of ffxiv is DNC know to be a brawler

BRD could use some dmg like RPR but not that much like RPR
But why are we comparing BRD to MCH a class that’s purpose is to get one person off the board to another that is supportive

If it’s just dmg I think your looking at things wrong if it’s job design I would luv to know what you ideal job would be (not being sarcastic)

With respect, I’m curious to know what your priorities are in a typical team in CC, seeing as dmg doesn’t seem to be at the top of that list. Not judging. Everyone has their own style.

Far as I’m concerned, when considering any given job, there is NOTHING more important in pvp than kill potential. Killing an opponent. . .trumps every other action. It beats a 4 second stun. It beats a team mate heal. It beats 3 second silence. Why? Because when a target is lying unconscious on the ground, it contributes NOTHING to the team, so jobs that can effectively induce this state are x10 more valuable than ones that. . .support.

The current brd. . .supports. It holds the team’s beer. Even when the team isn’t thirsty. Outside of bind and silence, defensively, it is THE most vulnerable, naked job on the team. “Help meee. . .”

Mch. Kills stuff. Blows it away. From across the map. Then drinks the beer brd was holding for it. Solo target, it stands its ground VERY well defensively with its probe/bio, which doubles over as very offensive on crystal point.

That’s why we’re comparing brd with mch. One job murders stuff. The other shines its shoes. Supportively. Perhaps you find said support more tactical. That’s fine. I’ll quietly take the murder.

To clarify the point, in the hands of a casual player, based exclusively on personal experience, it all feels something like this:

Brd < Mch, Whm
Pld < Gnb, Drk
Dnc< Blm, Smn

For the categories they’re engineered to utilize, entering dmg/kill potential into the equation, other jobs COMMONLY. . .just do it better. NO, that is NOT always the case, but 8/10 times in the everyday match with casual players, not vets, that’s what I see. Perhaps your experience greatly differs. Like I said, I have no clue what your priorities are if damage potential isn’t at the absolute top of that list.

[DallsBeep]

Because when a target is lying unconscious on the ground, it contributes NOTHING to the team

This is why support classes like healers and paladin are extremely valuable because they alone outside of the diminished player's own game sense and reaction have the ability to prevent that asset from being removed off the board. No, damage is not the most important thing in CC. That every class is performing up to it's potential damage is important but there is a hard cap on that. Ability up time has a limit. Potential damage has a limit. Effective use of your ability up time is far far far more important than raw numbers in this game. And by that I obviously mean hitting the right target at the right time and not standing around doing nothing while your abilities are up when you can be putting them to use. And these classes role is to mitigate any imbalances that come about as that uptime is wavering.

Paladin and Astro/WHM can absolutely take over a game and have pretty mediocre dmg at the same time while facing really high dmg outputs, just by simply manipulating the pieces on the board, protecting the weak link. I mean this is so fundamentally obvious and you are arguing for this in the statement I quoted above. All I can say is the support classes I quoted in this post have some of the highest carry potential in CC. That's not to say you can carry players that are doing 150k-200k dmg at all, but nobody should expect that and no class played well should be doing that, and this seems to be the main basis for your post which I think is a flawed starting to point, to say the least.

Also, cover is an S tier skill lol. This is simply for the fact that outside LB's it has the most potential variation in the value it may provide the team anytime I use it. It can be anything from "that got me killed" to "I saved my healer from dying to the gun breaker LB, nullified a couple of stuns, stalled the crystal, and gave their MCH an aneurysm." Not many other basic skills are going to give anything like that kinda value unless it's a group heal. I mean ffs you can literally just grab a person who's about to die and tell the enemy team "ayo hole up a minute bros we's gotta discuss some thangs, timeout ya'll time out" and give that player a full heal on the spot, thus completely averting the outcome that you pointed in the quoted portion above where you pointed out that having a player KO'ed is a pretty bad outcome at any given time in the match. I mean wtf man.

[Vandi]

Paladin and Astro/WHM can absolutely take over a game and have pretty mediocre dmg at the same time while facing really high dmg outputs, just by simply manipulating the pieces on the board, protecting the weak link. I mean this is so fundamentally obvious and you are arguing for this in the statement I quoted above. All I can say is the support classes I quoted in this post have some of the highest carry potential in CC. That's not to say you can carry players that are doing 150k-200k dmg at all, but nobody should expect that and no class played well should be doing that, and this seems to be the main basis for your post which I think is a flawed starting to point, to say the least.

Also, cover is an S tier skill lol. This is simply for the fact that outside LB's it has the most potential variation in the value it may provide the team anytime I use it. It can be anything from "that got me killed" to "I saved my healer from dying to the gun breaker LB, nullified a couple of stuns, stalled the crystal, and gave their MCH an aneurysm." Not many other basic skills are going to give anything like that kinda value unless it's a group heal.

Let me repost for clarification since it seems a bit needed.

[However, because the devs have become increasingly allergic to actual damage, certain jobs, much much much more so, in the hands of a ‘casual’, not vet but average take it or leave it combatant. . .at least from my experience, feel insufferable.]

Your above posts refer to individuals who actually KNOW their job’s dynamics. ANY job currently out can be played decently. Perhaps YOUR experiences have greatly differed. From mine, which is 100% all I can go by, the above jobs, in the hands of a __casual__ (need me to retype that particular word) suffer the most because of their low output. And yes, damage IS the most important thing in CC. Why? Because NO job, under a full focus, has the sustainability it had in previous expansions. The slews of damage mitigation abilities that existed have been stripped away, so that a hard focus on ANYONE collectively will kill them.

You mention, for example, pld, Astro, Whm as being absolutely take over worthy. Team marks the Whm. As pld, you can cover til you turn blue. After your 5 seconds of guard go poof, you’re gonna melt from a focus. The negative abilities just aren’t there anymore. Cover WAS a pain in the ass when Rampart, Sentinel, and Spammable HG were available, but the current pld has NONE of that. Just what, 12k extra hp and guard. And when those go?

If a gnb, drg, sam, blm, and smn went up against a pld, reaper, dnc, Whm, and brd for example, the latter usually gets wrecked. Why? No. Damage. You can play defensive til your butt falls off, but if you can’t KILL anything, you’re just stalling the inevitable. Is this always the case? No. But by god is it the majority.

[Magikazam]

Your above posts refer to individuals who actually KNOW their job’s dynamics.

So that not a issue of those jobs, but an issue that your teamate ain't as good as you want in CC.

[DallsBeep]

Let me repost for clarification since it seems a bit needed.

[However, because the devs have become increasingly allergic to actual damage, certain jobs, much much much more so, in the hands of a ‘casual’, not vet but average take it or leave it combatant. . .at least from my experience, feel insufferable.]

Your above posts refer to individuals who actually KNOW their job’s dynamics. ANY job currently out can be played decently. Perhaps YOUR experiences have greatly differed. From mine, which is 100% all I can go by, the above jobs, in the hands of a __casual__ (need me to retype that particular word) suffer the most because of their low output. And yes, damage IS the most important thing in CC. Why? Because NO job, under a full focus, has the sustainability it had in previous expansions. The slews of damage mitigation abilities that existed have been stripped away, so that a hard focus on ANYONE collectively will kill them.

You mention, for example, pld, Astro, Whm as being absolutely take over worthy. Team marks the Whm. As pld, you can cover til you turn blue. After your 5 seconds of guard go poof, you’re gonna melt from a focus. The negative abilities just aren’t there anymore. Cover WAS a pain in the ass when Rampart, Sentinel, and Spammable HG were available, but the current pld has NONE of that. Just what, 12k extra hp and guard. And when those go?

If a gnb, drg, sam, blm, and smn went up against a pld, reaper, dnc, Whm, and brd for example, the latter usually gets wrecked. Why? No. Damage. You can play defensive til your butt falls off, but if you can’t KILL anything, you’re just stalling the inevitable. Is this always the case? No. But by god is it the majority.

I don't really want to get into hypotheticals of what might happen in a match because that is a lot of stuff, so I'd like to examine something a little more concrete. Do you realize how much of an advantage having a WHM or an AST on your team is when the opposing team has no healer? This is a massive advantage. I'm not going to say it's an automatic win because there is no such thing but give me any team, I'm playing any class, I have one of these on my team and you do not, you can take any combination of higher tier DPS classes that you want, I don't care, I'll take the healer every single time. I don't need to look at what you have because I know you don't have one.

And also I should point out I didn't really read the last part of your post correctly where you essentially laid out such a scenario where you're giving one side the healer and saying the big hitters will win. I'll be the PLD on that other team with the WHM and I'm 100% fine with it and I'm very confident in the team makeup. Because I look at that other team and I know the only one that can kill me 1vs1 is the GNB, I can just duck into their back row and I'm not too worried. Pal is a great disruptive class if you play it that way cause of the survivability. And it does have good survivability if you just got the balls to stand there and keep attacking because that's healing yourself.

[Vatom]

With respect, I’m curious to know what your priorities are in a typical team in CC, seeing as dmg doesn’t seem to be at the top of that list. Not judging. Everyone has their own style.

My priority is pushing that crystal

Far as I’m concerned, when considering any given job, there is NOTHING more important in pvp than kill potential. Killing an opponent. . .trumps every other action. It beats a 4 second stun. It beats a team mate heal. It beats 3 second silence.

Unless you cherry picking or blind sight killing people. You should never be able to kill without CC or buffs or debuffs. If that happen 100-0 that person wasn’t even playing. MIT/ healing counters high dmg. I mean are we really gonna to ignore imp being able to cc any lb other then drg… no?


That’s why we’re comparing brd with mch. One job murders stuff. The other shines its shoes. Supportively. Perhaps you find said support more tactical. That’s fine. I’ll quietly take


What happen if we give everyone this dmg you ask for? Will that make everyone better? With that make the match more fun? What are if we remove all cc can still kill?

[joansbones]

Perhaps YOUR experiences have greatly differed. From mine, which is 100% all I can go by, the above jobs, in the hands of a __casual__ (need me to retype that particular word) suffer the most because of their low output.

please for the love of god play some high level ranked before commenting about cc balance. your casual queue teammates that can't figure out how to press recuperate to heal themselves are at fault here, it's like asking for a fps game to make a gun for people who only know how to look at the floor. nothing you give them is going to make them perform any better, you seem to not actually understand the strengths and weaknesses of each job judging by your comments in this thread.

[Vandi]

please for the love of god play some high level ranked before commenting about cc balance. your casual queue teammates that can't figure out how to press recuperate to heal themselves are at fault here, it's like asking for a fps game to make a gun for people who only know how to look at the floor. nothing you give them is going to make them perform any better, you seem to not actually understand the strengths and weaknesses of each job judging by your comments in this thread.

Oh my. I sense some people are taking this all personally. Once more, let me restate:

[Before I list these jobs, keep in mind, in the right hands, they CAN be played proficiently. So if you’re an individual who uses one of them(and knows how), ignore this post and keep up the good work.]

When ranked matches die out 2-3 weeks into the new season (at least on Excalibur), all this high ranked skill. . .goes up in smoke. Poof. What’s left? Casual. Not at ALL talking about high ranked matches. If it continued through out the season, I wouldn’t be here. But because we have no other mode BUT casual CC, that’s all there is to gauge. I can only go by personal experience, and by some of the things I’ve been reading (such as cover being an end of the world godly skill), it’s simply clear your experiences reeeeeeeeally differ from mine. No harm. Perhaps for YOU, in the typical casual, no ranked match (which is what’s predominantly played when ranks died out) brds and dnc’s do great things. In my world, every now and then I’ll see a dnc who does just plain STUPID damage. Wonderful. But 9/10 times by my experience, brd, dnc, and especially pld are CONSISTANTLY the lowest jobs. REGARDLESS of their potential.

[Vandi]

My priority is pushing that crystal

And my GOD that crystal must get pushed around the ever lovin’ WORLD when you don’t have the dps to clear it. Warms my heart when the blm and Sam step out the way for the brd & dancer. Yess sir.

Unless you cherry picking or blind sight killing people. You should never be able to kill without CC or buffs or debuffs.

Agreed. An unbuffed Wyrmwind Thrust + Marksman's Spite simultaneously on a target will be nothing more than a spiritually uplifting experience.

What happen if we give everyone this dmg you ask for? Will that make everyone better? With that make the match more fun? What are if we remove all cc can still kill?

Um. *ahem*

3.0 4.0

We…

. . .actually. . .

. . .had it. I know I know I know

[DallsBeep]

When ranked matches die out 2-3 weeks into the new season (at least on Excalibur), all this high ranked skill. . .goes up in smoke. Poof. What’s left? Casual.

Casual CC queue is full of players who don't know how to play, of every variety of class. I'll just use PLD as an example cause I'm pretty familiar with it. The reason why you see PLD's put up trash numbers in a steam roll game is because it takes awhile for PLD to get going, their LB takes a long time to charge up. It certainly wouldn't be unusual to see a PLD put up low DMG numbers if the crystal is already in their base before they've even gotten their 1st LB. This happens all the time, to me, and everyone else. Cause if you have 3 other people on your team that isn't doing shit and is going to die 5 times whilst taking 400k dmg which is very typical, then GL. You're gonna get rolled. Welcome to casual CC. But none of that has anything to do with any particular class being bad or harder to play or less valuable than classes that have higher DMG potential.

When the match finishes you just go and look at the dmg numbers which is utter noob bait. Personally the first thing I look at is how many deaths were my teammates taking as compared to how much DMG they actually took, that's the first thing I look at if we got beat. The ability to deal with being focused and reacting to it and their ability to soak without taking themselves out of the fight is more indicative to how good a player is than how much dmg they're doing a lot of the times, especially if they're on a bad team that keeps dying which means they themselves are going to be taking more DMG and thus be put into positions where they have to deal with it simply because there's less targets on the field. A MCH that only takes 280k dmg in a match and puts up the big numbah and snipes a lot of kills or whatever, big fucking deal, players like that are a dime a dozen. Yeah maybe you can slot just anyone in there to do that on that class. In that scenario, what does that prove?