Did tanks really need more healing

[Lyth]

??

No, I'm specifically talking about raid-level content with enrages. Tanks have won the battle in casual content by taking value away from healers, but lost the war when it comes to overall value. Tanks have plenty of carry potential in casual content without enrages, sure, and if that's the hill that you're trying to defend at all costs, by all means. I just think that you should be aiming higher than that.

Good DPS players will always be the top value in raid content because we make or break dps checks. The community has long since moved away from the perception of tanking as being a 'high-skill role'. I would assume that you should be aware of this by now.

I'm sorry if that bothers you, but it's the truth.

[Zakuyia]

Yeah but when ur whe team wiping XD I don't wanna see u screaming healer lb in chat. Nae scream for the tank to lb3 in chat

[CKNovel]

No, I'm specifically talking about raid-level content with enrages. Tanks have won the battle in casual content by taking value away from healers, but lost the war when it comes to overall value. Tanks have plenty of carry potential in casual content without enrages, sure, and if that's the hill that you're trying to defend at all costs, by all means. I just think that you should be aiming higher than that.

Good DPS players will always be the top value in raid content because we make or break dps checks. The community has long since moved away from the perception of tanking as being a 'high-skill role'. I would assume that you should be aware of this by now.

I'm sorry if that bothers you, but it's the truth.

Here's an actual truth:
You are not the one who decide which opinion is the truth, especially not your own.

I'm not arguing that tank or any role in the game is a high-skill role. What I'm arguing is that there's a clear difference between two tanks of varying level.
To quote you: "rotations are simple enough that you don't need to be good". But I'm going to teach you something: no rotation, tank or DPS, are difficult. XIV is a very easy game to learn, you should know that, especially when you have Viper listed as your main class.

"Good DPS players will always be the top value in raid content because we make or break dps checks."
Guess what, tanks and healers too. And guess what allows DPS to focus on DPS? Tanks and healer, without them you wouldn't be able to DPS for a minute.
Trying to debate which role brings the most value in a trinity meta is incredibly delusional like trying to debate which wheels of a car is the most important.

[Lyth]

...

You're missing the point. Tanks have seen a definite reduction in their responsibilities over time, in terms of positioning, mitigation, and snap enmity requirements. There is less room for a good tank to differentiate themselves from an average tank outside of pure dps. When roughly 1/3 of your toolkit is defensive and you do only 60% of the damage of a pure DPS, you need a skill differential outside of raw damage to demonstrate additional value.

The only place where that value can exist in current fight design is in your use of mitigation tools. Unfortunately, when you make tanks overly survivable, then you remove that last skill check altogether. And this is the core problem - because you're so intent on defending the status quo, tanks will continue to lose what little impact that they have left.

The most entertaining part about your response is that you yourself admitted being skill gated out of VPR earlier this week:

The Coil (hunter & swiftskin) have side and back positionnal but are both green.
To be fair I'm being massively skill checked by the positionnals I wish at least it would be easier to read if we're going to end on a side or back positional. I know it depends on the GCD you start but after a burst, you can easily forget with what you started.

Rather than taking affront to everyone who objects to the current level of tank survivability, why don't you look at ways that we can improve the role and expand out the skill differential so that good players are valued on the role again?

[CKNovel]

The most entertaining part about your response is that you yourself admitted being skill gated out of VPR earlier this week:

So that's where we end, digging post history to make a point? At this point you just gives up trying.
My performances are public on the forbidden website, you're free to check them if you absolutely wants to evaluate my DPS capabilities.

Whatever I said somewhere else doesn't devaluate my points, but attacking me on that front doesn't validate your points either.
I'm not a top world player but can definitely pull my weight when it comes to DPS.

[Lyth]

It's no great mystery. I've naturally been keeping an eye on the upsurge in threads where people were demanding unwanted simplifications to VPR due to apparent difficulty, so it's only natural that I'd remember your participation. The best part was that the retort was completely predictable, given the line of your previous posts in this thread. But I'm unfortunately not here to trade banter, as charming as it's been.

I think if you actually look at the substance of my post - namely, around the challenge of mitigation - then you'll see that high survivability, built-in passive regens, and on-demand burst self-sustain is antithetical to this. When I play a tank, I want to feel like I'm on the razor's edge. I want there to be a feeling of risk. Do you remember T9 at launch? The boss autos in P1 hit for half your health, and the cleaves for even more. There were more tankbusters in a single phase than you see in most modern fights. Every cooldown was rationed out so that you could survive. You even needed to make use of Foresight to survive. Remember Foresight? Foresight would be unrecognizable in the modern era of inflated defensive cooldowns with five or six built in additional effects including shields/regens/heals.

I understand why this game has moved away from having tanks position bosses. The netcode is janky compared to a lot of 'modern' MMOs (including circa 2004 Warcraft). Bosses can't move and auto at the same time. That, and the average tank can't position bosses. I know why we've moved away from add spawns - partially so that they don't have to balance jobs based off of AoE, but also because snap enmity on a mob that beelines and oneshots your healers is probably too much of an ask.

So that leaves mitigation as the unique 'tank check', which is just pass-fail. But why are we so afraid to let tanks fail? And if you're unwilling to challenge tanks on mitigation and survival, to really bring them to the brink - then how can tanks ever be anything more than melee dps with training wheels?

I don't know what the answer is, but it doesn't seem like there's a good one in this current design direction. It feels like they don't actually want a trinity design, but are obliged to stick with it because that's how the game started out. And it's the support jobs that have lost out, in the long run. I want more support mains to speak out about this so that we can see some semblance of value brought back to these roles, but at this point, it's probably not worth it.

[CKNovel]

It's no great mystery. I've naturally been keeping an eye on the upsurge in threads where people were demanding unwanted simplifications to VPR due to apparent difficulty, so it's only natural that I'd remember your participation. The best part was that the retort was completely predictable, given the line of your previous posts in this thread. But I'm unfortunately not here to trade banter, as charming as it's been.

So you back away despite you being the one who started the banter. That means enough.

The game hasn't moved away from boss positioning and adds, those things still exist, they're simply diluted in all the new mechanics we got compared to ARR/HW.
It would be boring if all bosses were moving them around, tank buster and adds to manage. Don't forget that mitigation wasn't a thing until tank rework.
The netcode is perfectly fine to deal with these kinds of mechanics just taking a loot at EX2 where the boss moves are pretty smooth unless he jumps

Tanks are blue DPS with extra tank mechanics&skills and that's more than fine. 60% is mighty fine and very valuable in early savage/ultimate, anything more would be too much.
After all, ranged DPS is 90% of a melee DPS.

And you can keep your provocations, "training wheels", "afraid to let tanks fail", that's just banter again.

[Supersnow845]

So you back away despite you being the one who started the banter. That means enough.

The game hasn't moved away from boss positioning and adds, those things still exist, they're simply diluted in all the new mechanics we got compared to ARR/HW.
It would be boring if all bosses were moving them around, tank buster and adds to manage. Don't forget that mitigation wasn't a thing until tank rework.
The netcode is perfectly fine to deal with these kinds of mechanics just taking a loot at EX2 where the boss moves are pretty smooth unless he jumps

Tanks are blue DPS with extra tank mechanics&skills and that's more than fine. 60% is mighty fine and very valuable in early savage/ultimate, anything more would be too much.
After all, ranged DPS is 90% of a melee DPS.

And you can keep your provocations, "training wheels", "afraid to let tanks fail", that's just banter again.

I’m not sure whether “the games hasn’t moved away from x they’ve just diluted x” or “mitigation wasn’t a thing until the tank rework” is the statement I want to focus on here because I have no idea how you reached either of those statements

Saying “they don’t move away from positioning” when 90% of the EW bosses just reposition themselves without the tank every mechanic is strange as a statement. Back in something like thordan EX tank positioning is super important because it dictates where you can solve the mechanics, in panda the boss with its moon sized hitbox just teleports itself to the centre and orients north before every mechanic

As for “mitigation didn’t exist before the rework” I just have no idea what to say to that, where did you get this idea from

[CKNovel]

Saying “they don’t move away from positioning” when 90% of the EW bosses just reposition themselves without the tank every mechanic is strange as a statement. Back in something like thordan EX tank positioning is super important because it dictates where you can solve the mechanics, in panda the boss with its moon sized hitbox just teleports itself to the centre and orients north before every mechanic

As for “mitigation didn’t exist before the rework” I just have no idea what to say to that, where did you get this idea from

Thordan was very minor movement. Boss did not moved from the middle in phase 1, tanks grabbed adds and only moved it to the eye, nothing more. Let's not act like if the boss was always moving.

As for mitigation, sorry I forgot to precise "party mitigation", obviously personal mitigation existed since the start of the game but party mitigation became much more present in Shadowbringer with a first small springle back in Stormblood.

[Supersnow845]

Thordan was very minor movement. Boss did not moved from the middle in phase 1, tanks grabbed adds and only moved it to the eye, nothing more. Let's not act like if the boss was always moving.

As for mitigation, sorry I forgot to precise "party mitigation", obviously personal mitigation existed since the start of the game but party mitigation became much more present in Shadowbringer with a first small springle back in Stormblood.

The boss wasn’t always moving but where you moved the boss to what essential for doing the fight right, now the boss just moves for you

As for party mitigation party mitigation is a healer job, there is no skill in pressing SIO when the shield healer tells you to press it, you are just part of the healers mit plan