Did tanks really need more healing

[CKNovel]

You could remove tank sustain to go back pre-EW, the healing in dungeon would remain boring, the sooner you come to this conclusion the better you'll understand the root of the problem.
Try healing a tank that doesn't use its sustain, you'll quickly find that the conclusion will remain the same, obviously the result will vary from healer to healer.
And on top of that you just made the tanks less creative and less fun.

But on my experience with SGE/SCH, the kit is already too much for dungeon.
Even as a tank, I often found myself not pressing some buttons because the excog never popped and half the pack was already dead.
There's a few exception, some packs inflicts small tank buster that can surprise from time to time and it's exactly what dungeons needs, just with a better way to communicate this big hit is about to happen.

But even then, healer rotation would remain a bore, spamming 1 while waiting damages to happen and resetting dot won't be enough.
Healers needs more damaging GCDs, nothing massive but something that makes them feel more than "healers with 1 damaging GCD and 1 dot."

A healbot design will never work, content will always be calculated around your floor and ceiling, except the more healing tools are added, the higher the ceiling goes, as their number alone are a complexity added.

[Supersnow845]

There is more than one facet of healer problems but not even having to press your own oGCD’s because the tank is doing it for you contributes

Healing a DRK IS more engaging than healing a WAR because at least I have a reason to press my oGCD’s. Anyone else literally doesn’t need me to be there

Nerfing tank sustain alone won’t fix healers but it’s one of the contributing problems

[CKNovel]

There is more than one facet of healer problems but not even having to press your own oGCD’s because the tank is doing it for you contributes
Healing a DRK IS more engaging than healing a WAR because at least I have a reason to press my oGCD’s. Anyone else literally doesn’t need me to be there
Nerfing tank sustain alone won’t fix healers but it’s one of the contributing problems

It won't fix anything or won't make anything better. Tank sustain put in light how barebone the healer gameplay was.
If you remove tank sustain the problem won't go away, it will remain but won't be under the spotlight.

You'll end up punishing groups which have a struggling healer by stopping anyone else from participating and trying to compensate for what they lack.

Remember that we had DRK able to dodge and spam Abyssal Drain, Warrior had access to Bloodbath, RDM and PLD could solo heal and nobody said anything, because healer design was more than being a healer bot with a dot.
Remember people were excited for SGE because they believe it to be a "DPS healer" or the equivalent of "Disc Priest" from WoW.

Tank sustain is not the problem but merely the trigger. Obviously if you remove the trigger the reaction will be gone... Until the next trigger where people will cry about removing it, continuing a cycle instead of fixing the root of the problem.

[Mikey_R]

Just as a note, I have been levelling Sage for the role quests and whilst Healer is my weakest role, even I have noticed a massive difference between healing a Dark Knight compared to a Gunbreaker or Paladin (not had the Warrior Pleasure yet).

It could be the fact I have just had bad Dark Knights (my sample size is small, 2 DRK, 2 PLD and 1 GNB), but for less experienced healers, the sudden shift between healing a Dark Knight compared to the others is going to be quite jarring.

Just to add onto this, done a Vanguard run, Paladin tried the first big pull, no defensives, no blade combo, I couldn't keep them alive, at all as Sage.

Again, this could just be my stupidity as a healer, but there seems to be 2 extremes, when you have a tank who knows what they are doing, it makes healers obsolete, when you have a tank that doesn't know what they are doing, healers are basically slowing down the inevitable.

How much of this is down to the missing mitigation or the lack of healing (and consequentially damage in the case of Paladin) provided by the tank isn't clear, but it seems there is a middle ground here that is the sweet spot as to where it should be.

[Supersnow845]

It won't fix anything or won't make anything better. Tank sustain put in light how barebone the healer gameplay was.
If you remove tank sustain the problem won't go away, it will remain but won't be under the spotlight.

You'll end up punishing groups which have a struggling healer by stopping anyone else from participating and trying to compensate for what they lack.

Remember that we had DRK able to dodge and spam Abyssal Drain, Warrior had access to Bloodbath, RDM and PLD could solo heal and nobody said anything, because healer design was more than being a healer bot with a dot.
Remember people were excited for SGE because they believe it to be a "DPS healer" or the equivalent of "Disc Priest" from WoW.

Tank sustain is not the problem but merely the trigger. Obviously if you remove the trigger the reaction will be gone... Until the next trigger where people will cry about removing it, continuing a cycle instead of fixing the root of the problem.

It will fix the fact that in 99% of content (yes even savage) the tank doesn’t need the healer, healer DPS rotations are a mess by themselves but you could make healers as complex as BLM if you wanted to, it still doesn’t fix the fact that at some level healers want to heal, not watch the tank do it for them

It’s the act of being unable to perform your own role, it’s like if holy’s stun never dropped off so you as the tank is functionally having the tanking done by the healer then the healer is like ACSHOOLY you being a tank is irrelevant you just need a more interesting DPS rotation. This wasn’t really a factor in SB because you actually had to be somewhat knowledgeable of your role and confident in your party to back you up, now it’s just “do you know where your short mit button is”

We as healers want to be the party’s primary healer, not playing a gimped caster while the tanks heal for us. That isn’t going to be fixed by making the DPS rotation more interesting (not I am not saying it shouldn’t it 100% should be made more interesting)

[CKNovel]

It will fix the fact that in 99% of content (yes even savage) the tank doesn’t need the healer, healer DPS rotations are a mess by themselves but you could make healers as complex as BLM if you wanted to, it still doesn’t fix the fact that at some level healers want to heal, not watch the tank do it for them

While it's true it's clearable with no healer, you voluntarely omit the fact that this requires exploiting the most of the tank kit and game mechanics, it's not like every player can do this, even excellent one.
That's like arguing that humans don't need to drink water everyday because one man survived two weeks without any water.
Or that one guy won lottery and stopped working, so people just have to win lottery and working is useless.

That's survivorship bias. Because someone did it doesn't mean everyone will do it, especially when the number of players who are able to achieve this can be counted on your fingers.

[Kabooa]

Tank sustain is not the problem but merely the trigger. Obviously if you remove the trigger the reaction will be gone... Until the next trigger where people will cry about removing it, continuing a cycle instead of fixing the root of the problem.

The relationship between tank and healer is diminished when the tank doesn't need the healer.

The root problem is that healing in this game is badly designed but you do not fix it by giving up and just letting one role divorce itself from the party outside of DPS requirements they cannot mathematically reach.

[CKNovel]

The relationship between tank and healer is diminished when the tank doesn't need the healer.

The root problem is that healing in this game is badly designed but you do not fix it by giving up and just letting one role divorce itself from the party outside of DPS requirements they cannot mathematically reach.

And you're correct when it comes the the design flaws of the healing in the game.
But the healer relationship is with the party, not with the tank. Dungeons adds have abyssmal amount of raidwide damage, no share or anything. Removing tank sustain will never fix that.

SQEX is left with two choice either expand on the healer role or embrace the "Green DPS" role.
Tanks moved away from their main role to be more and more focus on their "Blue DPS" aspect and the recipe worked while not giving up on its primary role.

Putting more strain on healers in casual content might result in a more intimidating role for players.
But expanding the DPS buttons won't and has a higher chance of interesting players.
That's why I believe they should explore the second option, but they can do both.

[Ramiee]

SQEX is left with two choice either expand on the healer role or embrace the "Green DPS" role.
Tanks moved away from their main role to be more and more focus on their "Blue DPS" aspect and the recipe worked while not giving up on its primary role.

I wouldn't use "worked" tanking in this game is pretty bad as well.

[Supersnow845]

And you're correct when it comes the the design flaws of the healing in the game.
But the healer relationship is with the party, not with the tank. Dungeons adds have abyssmal amount of raidwide damage, no share or anything. Removing tank sustain will never fix that.

SQEX is left with two choice either expand on the healer role or embrace the "Green DPS" role.
Tanks moved away from their main role to be more and more focus on their "Blue DPS" aspect and the recipe worked while not giving up on its primary role.

Putting more strain on healers in casual content might result in a more intimidating role for players.
But expanding the DPS buttons won't and has a higher chance of interesting players.
That's why I believe they should explore the second option, but they can do both.

Tanks didn’t just move away from their primary role and became blue DPS, they overtook the healer role from the healers. The average casuals favourite joke to post on mainsub is “hahahaha WAR go burrrrrrr unga Bunga” people are actually playing tanks at this point because it allows them to be a healer for themself. That is 100% cannibalising another role.

If they were so confident that dropping actual agro mechanics and just making them blue DPS with some defensives why did they also need to cannibalise healers to make people want to play them

I want more complex DPS on healer but it isn’t the totality of the problem simply because just making tanks Blue DPS wasn’t the totality of of the fix for them either, they actually had to encroach on healers to make them popular