Feedback: Dawntrail MSQ thoughts

[Cleretic]

Thank you, you say it very well. I am in the same situation with Emet too, and also Graha to some degree. To me the problem with FFXIV writing is that it can be very one-dimensional and while it doesn't bother me most of the times, it was too much of that throuhout Dawntrail (Wuk Lamat is like that but so are the bad guys).

I wouldn't call a lot of it 'one-dimensional' per se, but I think that you're observing something similar to what I have, that FFXIV has always been willing to write parts and characters to one single purpose, and to just make them really good at that purpose. Historically my examples have always been Vauthry and Nidhogg; they are little more than the things they appear to be right from the first moment you see them, but that's okay, because their role doesn't need anything deeper. Dawntrail has one of those, and I'd say it's Zoraal Ja; he's a brick-simple character, but he knocks the one thing he is right out of the park.

Wuk Lamat and Koana are a similar-but-different thing; they're characters with very loud and broad initial archetypes that are never really changed or proven wrong, but the characters are proven to be deeper than that. It is a very 'theater' approach to writing a character, so I'm not surprised that's part of Hiroi's background, but I feel like there's distinct shades of shonen anime in it, too, which often have a very similar approach to characterization; pretty much the entire internet has seen the Naruto-style protagonist vibes in Wuk Lamat, but I'd also point out Koana has big Seto Kaiba energy, that 'self-assured genius with a plan for everything' style. Zero's very similar, too.

Yes, you finally admit that the player has too less of a role.

This is literally in no way the point I was making, and you know that. I meant things like 'I don't like Emet-Selch or his story, but I like how Shadowbringers never gives us a clear depiction of any of what he exalts, we're always seeing either spectral forms or abstracted art pieces, while the things he fears and vilifies like the Terminus Beasts are very distinct and detailed'.

There are parts of the expansion that you will like, if you give yourself the leeway to appreciate them as they are, instead of declaring everything to be wrong, bad and the result of an entirely imagined rot at the head of the writing team.

[honest_psycho]

... instead of declaring everything to be wrong, bad and the result of an entirely imagined rot at the head of the writing team.

1) YOU put yourself on a pedestal, declaring OUR opinions to be wrong, that we "just dont understand the story very well".

2) I'm not "declaring" anything. I presented my arguments and let other people decide if they hold or not.

3) >"imagined brainrot of the writing team". Spoken like a true Poet.

Again:
You can present us the worlds best Pizza, but we don't wanna eat the same thing 4 times a day for en entire week.
I dont want a wikipedia article about the history of pizza or what goes into making one.

I wanted some other things besides Pizza.
I wanted fries, burgers, some salat, some fruit, you get the idea.

With DT, we ONLY got Pizza, with not enough soda to pour it down.
And then you call us uncultured gourmants.

[Cleretic]

1) YOU put yourself on a pedestal, declaring OUR opinions to be wrong, that we "just dont understand the story very well".

I don't put myself on a pedestal at all. But you just read me saying 'if you don't like the core of the story, respect it for what it is rather than dismissing it as bad, and look for smaller elements you do' as an admission that the WoL is a minor character.

Those aren't remotely the same, and I said you knew this, but I'm actually beginning to suspect you don't. I am not calling everyone who dislikes Dawntrail bad at reading, but you, specifically, are demonstrably bad at reading. Get better at it, and you might be less mad. Or maybe more, because here's another thing:

Nah, I'm good.
After I learned that he wrote the Ivalice story line, I don't want him to write anything important in this game.

I want Ichikawa back.

If you read the credits, you would know that she holds the title of 'Senior Story Designer'; this is close to the same title she had in Endwalker, of 'Lead Story Designer', and shares both with Banri Oda. You would also know that her name is spelled with an S, but you're going to claim that's nitpicking.

She's not going to come back and agree with you that someone made a mess and fire them like you've said you want; she's been here the whole time. She approved of this long before you did. So either take her off that pedestal you elevated her on, or respect that maybe she likes what you don't.

[honest_psycho]

Those aren't remotely the same, and I said you knew this, but I'm actually beginning to suspect you don't. I am not calling everyone who dislikes Dawntrail bad at reading...

You earlier:

No. That is only a problem for you, and it's largely because you aren't very good at reading this story.

Still avoiding the issue, confusing the content of a character with the insane amount of her screentime, and further gaslighting on top.

Not sure why you're still trying, but go ahead.

[CheshCa7]

Wuk Lamat and Koana are a similar-but-different thing; they're characters with very loud and broad initial archetypes that are never really changed or proven wrong, but the characters are proven to be deeper than that.

Yet again I am amazed reading your posts. On one hand you insult others regarding their reading ability, but the passage I just quoted makes it clear for me that you have no experience with writing, and honestly, I now question your experience with reading real literature. I mean, if those characters seem to you deeper somehow (oh, and BTW Vauthry alone is deeper then both of them combined, the bar is that low) you probably haven't really read a lot of good books, have you? And that's OK, except you insist as presenting yourself as some sort of erudite compared to the poor illiterate peasants that disliked the story.

[honest_psycho]

Wuk Lamat and Koana are a similar-but-different thing; they're characters with very loud and broad initial archetypes that are never really changed or proven wrong, but the characters are proven to be deeper than that.

What in the actual fuck is this sentence?

Didn't you say at the beginning that WL absolutely has an character arc?
And now she has a "archetype that are never really changed ", literally confirming that our critizism regarding her missing growth was correct.

> registered since 2021
> 2445 posts

Guys, I think this might actually be an AI who is trained on forums.
I can't explain this nonsense any other way. A human wouldnt write this kind of sentences.

If that's the case, then cudos to the programmer. This is a very convincing Karen.

[Chasingstars]

If I had to critique something about the MSQ, I think the 5th zone, HF, feels a bit jumping the gun.

What happens to the zone is meant to be spooky and impactful, and yet that starts to wear off relatively quickly. At least for me, as there is nothing to compare it to for what HF was like before Zoraal Ja did his thing. Like maybe the story could have let the WoL and Erenville travel to HF when it was normal, meet Cachiua, then get sent back to Tuliyollal, and that as we reach Shaaloani, that is when Zoraal Ja does his thing.

Like how I would fix this is:

1. Erenville, as the quest giver, has that glowing circle that indicates instanced solo content and also "multiple cutscenes will play out."
2. Erenville, WoL, and Namikka ride the train together.
3. Cutscene while in a train car of the characters having a pleasant conversation together
4. Afterward the three arrive in HF, this is a playable event where its got a fixed path like a dungeon where the WoL is meant to go. The enviroment should be verdant and colorful and almost idyllic while still being a desert, also blue skies with a few white clouds and the sun overhead. The buildings should look relatively brand new.
5. Arriving at Erenville's village Namikka waves them goodbye as she heads off to the next village over as she hopes to see Wuk Lamat soon.
6. Then another cutscene plays out with Erenville and his mother Cachiua having a reunion, eventually the WoL gets a call on the linkpearl to come back about something important.
7. Erenville and WoL walk back to the train station, get on the train, and then a cutscene plays.
8. Nothing bad seems to happen on their trip back ,they arrive at the Shaaloani station, and then we the lightning dome and the aircraft appearing as Zarool Ja inacts his plan.

As its give the player a taste of normalcy for the northern part of the region before what terrible things befall it. In reality this would be like 1 extra quest is all I am purposing to actually help give the story more cohesion.

[Denishia]

Personal thoughts:

Where DT failed on its execution for me is where it did a variation on what failed miserably in both ShB and EW: namely that Ishikawa wrote those two stories hinging on our WoL liking Emet Selch as a character, feeling sympathy for him and his goals of reviving his dead world, and that Elpis needs your WoL to feel the lingering friendship of Azem with him and Hythlodeaus and the regret that our goals are at odds. Wuk Lamat treats Sphene exactly as the MSQ forced your WoL to treat Emet. Both Sphene’s plan for the Endless and the Ascians are attempting to sacrifice entire worlds worth of lives in a plan that was flawed from the outset and could never accomplish the states goal- and said goal is failed necromancy. The Endless are incomplete counterfeit ghosts and the Ancients’s souls, as Fandaniel and Gaia proved, can’t scrub clean the memories and trauma they have accumulated. And Living Memory is a theme park blatant in its artificial idealized nature, a less-subtle repeat of the false assertion of the UnSundered World as a paradise with no deep systemic problems to address.

Alexandria does have the parallel to AI and the massive unsustainable resource drain that it causes and that the final zone is really about how funerary practices and remembering the dead are about giving closure to the living, not for the dead. Said nuances don’t alter that fact that I want to forget and erase Emet’s character and any cloying sentimentality towards to UnSundered. So Sphene and the Endless are a retread, with predictable mostly negative feedback. But it also has the FFIX nostalgia. And that works for IX fans but is only a fandom subset.

[ZavosEsperian]

The Endless are incomplete counterfeit ghosts

Said nuances don’t alter that fact that I want to forget and erase Emet’s character

You're certainly embodying him well enough...

[Cleretic]

Yet again I am amazed reading your posts. On one hand you insult others regarding their reading ability, but the passage I just quoted makes it clear for me that you have no experience with writing, and honestly, I now question your experience with reading real literature. I mean, if those characters seem to you deeper somehow (oh, and BTW Vauthry alone is deeper then both of them combined, the bar is that low) you probably haven't really read a lot of good books, have you? And that's OK, except you insist as presenting yourself as some sort of erudite compared to the poor illiterate peasants that disliked the story.

Then please, give recommendations on what we should be reading rather than attacking me and my opinions, directly and exclusively, as you've been doing in this entire thread. You have expressed exactly zero opinions that weren't directly replying to me and going 'NUH-UH'.

If you're just here to attack me, say so.