Feedback: Dawntrail MSQ thoughts

[llew821]

First off, I want to say that the dungeons, bosses, environments, music, graphics, and gameplay are excellent. However, my primary gripe is with the main story quest (MSQ). The pacing and the main character, Wuk Lamat, were not to my liking. I personally prefer more character agency. This type of storytelling feels very reminiscent of World of Warcraft, where players mostly stand back while NPCs drive the narrative.

I appreciate all the hard work the main scenario team put into crafting this experience, and I want them to know that. While I don't expect perfection, I simply didn't enjoy the direction the MSQ took.

I feel the same way, they triad everything to make us like Wuk Lamat (Huge red flag for me), they "hay that broke the camel's back" for me, was that... "she pop's up to steal our thunder" (cant be specific without spoilers), every time it can be..., is she likeable?, yes, it feel's way to forced and if this is the "new trail" the story is going now?, I don't know if a will stick around for the next patch or expack.

[llew821]

The problem isn't that we got all that.

The problem is that Wuk Lamat is a textbook-case of "Mary Sue":

- Getting the majority of the screentime and dialog, making other characters severely underdeveloped (example: Zoraal Ja's goals and motivations are mentioned in like 10 lines in total) or Gabool Ja speedrunning his redemption arc in order to not steal WukLamats spotlight.

- getting plotarmor against Gabool Ja and half an army and taking him out, despite being fought off effortlessly before.

- No serious characterflaws (not likeing alpacas or being seasick doesnt count, or is even more embarassing, considering she's a 6'6 buff warrior, absolute cringe)

- She is never forced to do a morally grey decision, best example is with the red-armored HokYuj. Before they fight, some random fucking bird just attacks all of the sudden, so WukLamat can heroicly "save" her enemy and befriend them".
Imagine what kind of interessting dilemma she could have faced, if she had to kill in self defense, but her status as spotless hero is saved by coincidence, --> no character progession.

Textbook-case of "Mary Sue".

couldn’t agree more

[solitonmedic]

Not sure if this was said and it's probably not much of an issue, but did we really need cutscenes during Valigarmanda search quests?

I can literally see the aetherpointer locating the wrong target, the fire sprite is right there, we didn't need a whole cutscene verifying it. Just give me a line of dialogue and move on.

I feel like there's a whole lot of unnecessary cutscenes in this expansion that could just gave us a few lines of dialogue and we'd understand all the same.

[Cilia]

Problem is players are Main Character drunk and use to the Main character being the center of attention. It was a nice change to not have the WOL hording the spot light at every turn for once, nothing wrong with letting another character take the wheel for a while.

By definition, the main character (usually the Player Character / Warrior of Light) should be the center of attention. We've had a significant role in every story so far, and the overall narrative is framed as being their story. The story they were least involved with was Heavensward; that was Alphinaud's story with Estinien as the deuteragonist, and even then it became personal after Haurchefant was killed.

Dawntrail, in comparison, feels like it was written and then a few dialogue options were pasted into the script to give us the illusion of narrative purpose. You could cut the Warrior of Light (and hell, the Scions in general) out of the script and it would work just fine with a few edits. Even in our bread and butter capacity of being an indomitable soldier capable of handling threats nobody else can, Wuk Lamat upstages us at the very end. It's fine as a story, but video games are an interactive medium; being reduced to a hanger-on for an NPC isn't exactly most peoples' idea of a fun time in that regard.

The Warrior of Light should be the main protagonist, or at least have a significant role in the story. In Dawntrail you could replace them with an NPC or cut them out entirely. Kind of an issue, in my opinion. It's not altogether uncommon in Daichi Hiroi storylines, so I kind of expected it, but I wasn't expecting more or less every other character to spend most of the story warming the bench for Wuk Lamat.

[Rannie]

snip snip.

right not even to mention during the second half we actually have the option to say basically that "it looks like a job for the Scions!" and they go into a full explanation of how we're secretly still together and not tell anyone, but that was all for not since... lo and behold Wuk Lamat just takes over... oh joy!

[Cleretic]

I feel the same way, they triad everything to make us like Wuk Lamat (Huge red flag for me), they "hay that broke the camel's back" for me, was that... "she pop's up to steal our thunder" (cant be specific without spoilers), every time it can be..., is she likeable?, yes, it feel's way to forced and if this is the "new trail" the story is going now?, I don't know if a will stick around for the next patch or expack.

This is neither new, nor a crime; The writers put a lot of energy into specifically making you like (or in other, less common cases, dislike) certain characters, and they've done this all throughout the game. You have tastes and preferences, just as everyone does, so it doesn't work for everyone, but as a writer you're better off accepting that than to try to treat it like a problem worth fixing. You can't write a good Wuk Lamat if you're spending every moment fretting about the people who'll never like her. Instead, you write for the people who always will, or someday might.

Really, your problem isn't that they tried to make you like a character: it's that this time, you happened not to bite. And as someone who didn't bite when they pulled out all the stops to make us like a certain Shadowbringers character: yeah, it sucks to be in the audience for a story you hate, and said story will never really get you on side in full, but it's far better to recognize that it's not a fault of anybody in the process; you're just going through a story aimed at someone else. Once you do, you'll start being able to appreciate the parts of it that do appeal to you (even if they are less prominent), as well as the craft of the whole thing. I hate Emet-Selch, but I can see all the work that went into him, and can even like parts of it.

[Mansion]

Really, your problem isn't that they tried to make you like a character: it's that this time, you happened not to bite. And as someone who didn't bite when they pulled out all the stops to make us like a certain Shadowbringers character: yeah, it sucks to be in the audience for a story you hate, and said story will never really get you on side in full, but it's far better to recognize that it's not a fault of anybody in the process; you're just going through a story aimed at someone else. Once you do, you'll start being able to appreciate the parts of it that do appeal to you (even if they are less prominent), as well as the craft of the whole thing. I hate Emet-Selch, but I can see all the work that went into him, and can even like parts of it.

Thank you, you say it very well. I am in the same situation with Emet too, and also Graha to some degree. To me the problem with FFXIV writing is that it can be very one-dimensional and while it doesn't bother me most of the times, it was too much of that throuhout Dawntrail (Wuk Lamat is like that but so are the bad guys).

[Lyth]

I don't think this is a case of 'bad-luck' with the writing. Nor is this specifically a character-writing problem. Cahciua thoroughly stole the second half, demonstrating that word count investment isn't required to write a compelling character.

It's a problem of Daichi Hiroi consistently not writing for this specific medium. I know he's coming at this from a theatre background, but this is not a play set in the FFXIV universe, with the audience as in-game spectators. It's an interactive MMO told from the lens of the player character. It's a second-person narrative, which is decidedly unique in fiction. There is a balance to be struck between directing a narrative while still giving the players 'hooks' to 'clothe themselves in the fiction', to borrow Ishikawa's turn of phrase.

I know that we're locked in with Hiroi for the foreseeable future, but I hope that this 'critical miss' in the reviews at least gets him to reflect on how his writing style fits in with the medium.

[honest_psycho]

You can't write a good Wuk Lamat if you're spending every moment fretting about the people who'll never like her.

Wouldn't it have been more interesting to find out, WHY people (in-universe) don't like her, so WL can improve herself to accomodate?
The story bent itself backwards to make out WL as already perfect, so where's no reason to.
Oh, and you basically said "the opinions of people who don't like WL don't matter"...

Really, your problem isn't that they tried to make you like a character: it's that this time, you happened not to bite.

I didn't "bite" with Hien in Stormblood, because imo, he was a bit too one-dimensional, but he gets a pass because there are a lot of other characters, who got more than enough screen time (Gosetsu, Yugiri, the scions etc.)
You can't compare this with WL overbearing presence.

... you're just going through a story aimed at someone else. Once you (recognize that), you'll start being able to appreciate the parts of it that do appeal to you (even if they are less prominent)

Yes, you finally admit that the player has too less of a role.
You're entitled to the opinion, that this was a good thing.
As much as we are entitled to dislike this (others already have explained why).

You can present us the worlds best Pizza, but we don't wanna eat the same thing 4 times a day for en entire week.
I dont want a wikipedia article about the history of pizza or what goes into making one.

[honest_psycho]

I know that we're locked in with Hiroi for the foreseeable future, but I hope that this 'critical miss' in the reviews at least gets him to reflect on how his writing style fits in with the medium.

Nah, I'm good.
After I learned that he wrote the Ivalice story line, I don't want him to write anything important in this game.

I want Ichikawa back.