Feedback: Dawntrail MSQ dungeon difficulty

[Masekase_Hurricane]

These sort of threads really p*** me off because 9/10 times SE listens to them. The gap between msq dungeon difficulty to Ex Savage has gotten wider and wider over the expansions. There needs to be a more consistent rise in difficulty as you progress through the game and the only time lower dungeons should be nerfed is when the next expansion comes out.

I'm not a Savage/Extreme player as such, but I do like to dabble and challenge myself at them every so often. Nerfing them just makes the end game content harder as it's more of a shock to the system when you reach them.

[Katachthon]

"Use Trusts" "Get Good" "You don't need to do this content lol."

You know what kind of players will dominate this game if this trend continues. I have seen many a game experiencing this.

It is simple: more grinding and unforgiving mechanism -> competitiveness and toxicity prevail; less grinding and unforgiving mechanism -> collaboration and friendship grow.

Yoshi-p has a choice, so do we all.

To those who mock casual players who have better things to tend to in real life: What are you afraid of?

The falsehood of the sense of superiority? From a Small Small dungeon? Your refusal to understand the Main Story?

You are entitled to enjoy the game your way, but not entitled to talk about other players in such a mean fashion.

Get good in your etiquette, please. How other players play the game is none of your business.

[Bearskjold]

Can I ask what it is about the first boss of Alexandria that people struggle with

If it’s his attack where he puts out 6 doughnuts or cross shaped AOE’s then does either a side or front cleave it’s about understanding his rhythm as only the first and last of the 6 doughnuts/cross shaped matter as they are the ones that will fall inside his potential side cleaves

1) if his first attack is a doughnut it will go off before his side cleave, so stand in the doughnut then immediately move out
2) if his first attack is a cross shaped AOE simply preposition closest to the first doughnut
3) if his last attack is a doughnut the cleave goes off first, preposition for the cleave closest to the doughnut, don’t be afraid to press sprint
4) if the last attack is cross shaped then you are already golden

As for the first boss of strayborough his adds are annoying and the punishment for them is too long but the adds don’t actually hurt that much so don’t be afraid of them

If worse comes to worst you can also do these fights on a tank, the tanks are near immortal so if you get hit by one or two AOE’s you’ll be fine

I play WAR primarily, and I can assure you, if you fail the mechanics of these new fights enough times, you are still going to die. Granted I had a lot more trouble with the NPC groups than actual players, but still, sprint has a cd and if you don't happen to notice the new, more subtle boss prompts at just the right time, you are going to get hit.

[Bearskjold]

These sort of threads really p*** me off because 9/10 times SE listens to them. The gap between msq dungeon difficulty to Ex Savage has gotten wider and wider over the expansions. There needs to be a more consistent rise in difficulty as you progress through the game and the only time lower dungeons should be nerfed is when the next expansion comes out.

I'm not a Savage/Extreme player as such, but I do like to dabble and challenge myself at them every so often. Nerfing them just makes the end game content harder as it's more of a shock to the system when you reach them.

I'm not advocating for nerfing the dungeons per say. I'm saying that MSQ should not be locked behind dungeons that the average player will struggle to get through. Many of us play this game primarily for that story, because we have been enjoying these stories in the single player Final Fantasy games for years. When you reach a boss in a single player FF that you're incapable of defeating, you go out and grind levels and/or get better gear and come back. You might research different strategies that utilize abilities you hadn't previously used. That isn't an option with these MSQ dungeons, because there are limits to how far you can level/gear, and strategies for clever spell use in the single player games don't work here. So instead, your option is to continue pounding your head against the wall in frustration, go with a group and hope you have a damn good healer and someone who knows wtf they're doing (preferably the healer), or give up and miss out on the sole reason you were playing in the first place: the story.

It's disappointing to me that over the years, SE has followed Blizzard's example of increasing dungeon difficulty by simply making more crap you have to dodge. Only SE takes it one step farther, by limiting the use of predictive addons and making many "warnings" extremely subtle and easy to miss. There are most definitely ways to increase the challenge in dungeons beyond "dodge the crap". It's group content, engage the whole freaking group. It doesn't have to just be tank gets smacked, healer heals, and dps stand there smashing their heads against the keyboards as fast as possible. Design encounters where the mage has to use his magic to tank something, or the ninja has to sneak past something to unlock a buff, or the bard has to shoot something that debuffs the boss. There's countless ways to add challenge beyond dodge the crap as fast as you can or die, but it is the easiest way for companies to please the young folks looking to turn MMORPG's into the next Elden Ring so they keep on doing it.

So if they really must continue down this path, then all I am asking is that another difficulty is added to dungeons. Let those folks looking for that Dark Souls action have their super fast-paced dungeons, and then make a second difficulty with a little slower pace for the rest of us.

[NovaStella]

I think the chance of failure in a dungeon is good and healthy. I think no matter what, there are going to be people who find the content too easy, and people who find the content too difficult.
Maybe there could be an "echo" option added for trusts? Like in old high-end content. It could make all the NPC's do the mechanics correctly, and buff the player's hp/damage/healing. They could even limit this to the first play-through, and have it as an option after you die, encouraging people to tackle the normal difficulty later for more drops.
There are ways to make it so people that aren't as good at the game can still participate, without punishing people who have played enough to have gotten better at it.

[Connor]

Can I ask what it is about the first boss of Alexandria that people struggle with

If it’s his attack where he puts out 6 doughnuts or cross shaped AOE’s then does either a side or front cleave it’s about understanding his rhythm as only the first and last of the 6 doughnuts/cross shaped matter as they are the ones that will fall inside his potential side cleaves

1) if his first attack is a doughnut it will go off before his side cleave, so stand in the doughnut then immediately move out
2) if his first attack is a cross shaped AOE simply preposition closest to the first doughnut
3) if his last attack is a doughnut the cleave goes off first, preposition for the cleave closest to the doughnut, don’t be afraid to press sprint
4) if the last attack is cross shaped then you are already golden

As for the first boss of strayborough his adds are annoying and the punishment for them is too long but the adds don’t actually hurt that much so don’t be afraid of them

If worse comes to worst you can also do these fights on a tank, the tanks are near immortal so if you get hit by one or two AOE’s you’ll be fine

I think the issue is because of the timing between the O/X AoE and the Immune Response AoE. It’s timed to catch players out by playing on the fact aoes have generally taken longer to resolve.

Which, personally I think is a pretty interesting way to change things up, by subverting our expectations. Once you work out the timing you’ll rarely ever get hit by it unless you stop paying attention (collective you lol).

As for Strayborough I do agree that despite how annoying the mechanics are the damage is tuned fairly low. Which likely is exactly why the mechanics are more obnoxious than usual lol. Though, that still won’t stop me from hating those little shits that yeet themselves at you out for no reason, attach themselves to you, refuse to elaborate further. lol

[Zehrylin]

4. Tower of Zot's Sanduruva, specifically Manusya Confuse. I'm on the autism spectrum, and have some difficulty picking up body language and facial expressions. The differences in the poses are too subtle for me to pick up and process this mechanic. To me they all just look the same. I'm unable to do this mechanic on my own, and have to follow the trust NPC's or follow a player and hope they run to the right spot.

Unless they've changed the way it works, I can help you with this one. If you look at the quest list, at the top should be the Duty tasks and it should have the boss name with a health bar. If you click on that, it should target the real boss out of all the fakes, and you can run to safety. That's how I have to do it, because otherwise it's the same for me, I'm too slow at seeing which one isn't doing some sort of emote. It takes my brain too long to process them all.

[Zehrylin]

Also throwing in my agreement on here after the final story Trial. It was all enjoyable except for the one mechanic where the room was absolutely covered in crap to dodge. It reminded me of Eparch in GW2, and there's a reason I refuse to do that map meta ever again. It's rage-inducingly frustrating trying to dodge so many mechanics that I can't tell them apart, and a LOT of people over there, including one of the best raiders in that game, absolutely loathe that fight.

And now it seems SE is doing the same damn thing, except it's the final, MANDATORY fight of an expansion.

Also, apparently the optional unlock dungeons are the same way, 'cause I saw someone mention a dungeon I hadn't even heard of yet? Which means I'm going to absolutely dread roulettes. Guess after I finish leveling what classes I want, I'll do my first deliberate unsub, 'cause this whole mess ain't it for me.

[Akonyl]

I am admittedly an older gamer. My days of hardcore mythic/savage raiding are behind me, in part because I recognize that I just can't keep up with the increasing pace of fight mechanics. I'm completely capable of learning and reacting to mechanics, but there needs to be time to react. By the time you see the telegraph on the ground in these fights, it's already too late to get to where you need to be.

It sounds like the issue here is you're assuming that the split-second aoe flashes here are meant to be dodged with hardcore gamer twitch-react skills, when they're not at all. When you see a split-second aoe indicator flash like boss 1 of Alexandria, you should take it as a sign that there's something else you're supposed to be paying attention to to tell you where to go, because indicators like that are always just meant as a way to show you where the range of the attack is in case you get hit, so you can learn where the edges of the aoe actually are.

"When you see the telegraph, it's already too late" is the point, you're supposed to already be in position to dodge the aoe before it shows up. Stand on the donuts before they explode, and stand diagonal of the plus signs before they explode. When they do, move into position for the next one. It's a learning mechanic, not a reaction one.

[Bearskjold]

It sounds like the issue here is you're assuming that the split-second aoe flashes here are meant to be dodged with hardcore gamer twitch-react skills, when they're not at all. When you see a split-second aoe indicator flash like boss 1 of Alexandria, you should take it as a sign that there's something else you're supposed to be paying attention to to tell you where to go, because indicators like that are always just meant as a way to show you where the range of the attack is in case you get hit, so you can learn where the edges of the aoe actually are.

"When you see the telegraph, it's already too late" is the point, you're supposed to already be in position to dodge the aoe before it shows up. Stand on the donuts before they explode, and stand diagonal of the plus signs before they explode. When they do, move into position for the next one. It's a learning mechanic, not a reaction one.

That was one specific example, and even that has little margin for error. Fights where you are looking for some subtle move the boss is making or difference between one lightning orb and another are much harder to figure out in time to be useful, and heaven forbid you have to look down at your bars for any reason at the wrong time. And like others have mentioned, there are several fights where there is literally so much ground clutter/lights effects that it's almost impossible to even make heads or tails of what's going on at your feet. I have no problem with wiping to new content while learning, but it's difficult to figure things out when there's nothing obvious to learn from and mistakes are swiftly punished.