Dawntrail's Final Zones destroy everything the story has built.

[Ozmandis]

Sphene wanted to devour entire worlds to sustain her people for as long as possible.

We wanted to stop Sphene.

The only way to stop Sphene was to shut off the Meso Terminal.

Shutting off the Meso Terminal also kills all the Endless.

That's why we don't let the Endless live and die of old age.

Not that complex for people who were paying attention.

You can still understand all of that and think it's a pile of shit you know ? We didn't get this infos from a source that is 100% reliable, hence we should not be taking it at face value. That's as simple as that. I don't care it's coming from the characters that are on our side, they still could be wrong after all. We didn't have any proof of all of that, just their word and I'm sorry it's not enough to comvince me especially when the actual events directly contradict what we've been told.

And btw, you don't need to be a child that can't engage in debate by strawmaning the opposition and acting like they understand nothing.

[CerusSerenade]

You can still understand all of that and think it's a pile of shit you know ? We didn't get this infos from a source that is 100% reliable, hence we should not be taking it at face value. That's as simple as that. I don't care it's coming from the characters that are on our side, they still could be wrong after all. We didn't have any proof of all of that, just their word and I'm sorry it's not enough to comvince me especially when the actual events directly contradict what we've been told.

And btw, you don't need to be a child that can't engage in debate by strawmaning the opposition and acting like they understand nothing.

So the centuries+ year old AI with access to all the finest minds of their age who created the technology they're using isn't reliable?

Yeah no, you're just being contrarian.

Also, learn what "strawmanning" is because that's not what I did in what you quoted. Best not use words and terms you don't know the meaning of.

[TheMightyMollusk]

You didn't really answer my question. How can something that's not alive be genocidal? A machine doesn't have any concept of such a thing. I think you really need to pick one argument and stick to it because your arguments aren't compatible.

Genocide is the deliberate destruction of a nation or people. Why would something have to be alive to do that? Your constant attempts to shift the goalposts aren't actually changing the argument at all.

Also, calling them all complicit is odd. No matter what country you live in IRL, it has undoubtedly been responsible for some manner of atrocity in it's history. Are you complicit in that because you directly or indirectly benefit from being a citizen of that country?

It's generally accepted that citizens under a nation, state, sovereign, whatever aren't intrinsically complicit with any acts the ruling body or system they live under commit, doubly so in situations where they seemingly don't have much of a choice in the matter. The Endless we see in the final zone weren't going around killing people and taking their souls, so I'd say your argument falls flat here as well.

Their entire society is built around consuming souls the way we'd go through a set of clothes. They talk about it openly, most of them clearly don't consider it a big deal, aside from the Oblivion rebels and Krile's parents. Either they're programs copying memories and can't actually form another opinion, or they're knowingly complicit and accept it as just the way things are. So, again, my argument is still exactly the same as it always has been.

And I for one don't really benefit from my country's atrocities, nor do I condone or participate in them. So that really doesn't help your case.

In any case, we're clearly going in circles here.

[Ozmandis]

So the centuries+ year old AI with access to all the finest minds of their age who created the technology they're using isn't reliable?

Yeah no, you're just being contrarian.

Also, learn what "strawmanning" is because that's not what I did in what you quoted. Best not use words and terms you don't know the meaning of.

The ascians did not a find a solution to the final days despite being even more advanced for all I know.

Plus, this "finest minds" are not able to cure aetherial imbalance or tempering, something we can very much do so.....

[GTK0HLK]

So many here who give off the impression that they didnt even play the MSQ, despite spouting words from the MSQ. (its like theyre using Buzzwords. or trying to denigrate others to World Killers cause they cant prove what they dont know.)

Before DT, i wouldnt call Alexandria, Cyberpunk at all, and Honestly. i still fn wouldnt.
BUT it did take some huge concepts of it.
Those Who Played Cyberpunk2077 would have some inclinations and ideas of what is going on in Alexandria.
AND WHY THEY ARE NOT LIVING, Not ever since they died completely the first time.

What The People Of the (Un)"Living World", <the whole name of it, is a mockery of itself. which many do not get.> are. Are just Engrams, Save Files.
and people are thinking that Memories are like Souls? They are not. it has been from the start of the game and recent times that you can get your memory manipulated and covered over by aether. Be it a Machine or a Cataclysmic event in which the Phoenix Prevails.

To Return a Person to who they are, you need their Original Memory, and their Soul in order to be able to succesfully implant them into a body. (and then for that body to have good acceptance of it. Hence why with the Exarch, there was only a risk of rejection if his Younger Self didnt accept him. Which The both seemingly embraced.) Which leads to the scions just waking up with ease as its their own memories and souls rising in their own bodies.

(No risks of the body affecting them negatively as it is in lore with Ascians, or with other entities. and if its vacant like with Solus's Clones, Free to take and tailor to his whims.)
as others have stated, with the omicron and other Evolved/Transformed/Built Lifeforms, they changed and became that. (if anything, the Omicron sounded just like how Cyberpunk would be to the Extreme. Dalek you might say, but not really, as their goals where from a false notion to dominate first. rather than out of malice or straight hate.) But they never went on existing after their death, and return to their own Aetherial Seas.

IS TO SAY: to implant in a body, to Live. or simply change and evolve into different paths. you need your Memories and Soul Intatct.
Once both are gone, damaged, youre either a Empty Mind but living body. (sounds like quite abit of characters we know of. when they passed out, though their corporeal Aether/Ether was clearly left behind. or Galool Ja Ja<Resolve> who Held both his and <Reason>'s Souls.)

So what are the People of Alexandria Really? (if we take what we know of previous expansions and what we are told)

YOU KNOW THEY ARE ONLY MEMORY
THE SOULS TAKEN ARE ONLY THERE TO PROVIDE A FACSIMILE of the Living. (Like the Scions of the First, but actually dead. not free of a Corporeal, where they can easily go back into in with some assistance. they have no body. and the memories are no longer in a shape or INTACT for a body.) (the Talk of Alternate bodies has no place in the conversation, as its bringing different topics when talking about what They are. but that can be talked later, when it comes to what could we done for them? Which is nothing, cause we had no FN agency.)

Like i stated earlier, Those who Played Cyberpunk 2077 will know exactly what this is all like.
This is Practically "SoulKiller" in Final Fantasy. and as those who played the game, and know the alternate fates of our "Valentino Brother". If you happen to see him, its just a program pretending to be him. (Just like it is for all others in that universe who "Secure Your Soul". When a Full Copy Requires Death.)

The Endless of Alexandria are nothing other than Engrams/SaveFiles/MemoryData. That LIVELINESS that you see from some of them. Like Cahciua, or Sphene, and all others.
What do you think those people would react when they are booted up again? They Remember their Previous Iterations, Deaths, and all that they care to know as Endless Cause their Savefiles Get Updated.
(hence the Endless that got Engaged with his Lover, was even able to understand and tell the Main Party of how they are all randomly generated at different times from their memory. and why he didnt want to risk getting his ring and be taken apart by the souls of Mobs. and not be with his lover.)

The Large majority of the idle, not dialog related ones, have made their peace, and looped like NPC's (that they are, but in universe) they've become.
They've been ready to move on for a long time, with nothing to do, but to repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. Until it all shuts down, falls apart, or til the Resources run out. You can see the Hollow(ness) Eyes <no, not our MC Eyes. jk jk> out of some of the Endless who just end up repeating the same thing. like one milalla who was going on about a specific food in one area and only cared about that.

So weve come to some terms that they arent still living. their memories arent even in conventional means to put back into a body. (as much as some of youre falsely claiming that it can prove they still live.) and that these Datafiles have updated to a point where they dont even move on past a few things they care about, like the NPCs they actually are.

While Special Endless like Cahciua and Sphene have their reasons to be who they are. Eren's Mother for Example, still was only there for at most 30yrs, and at minimum 0. (She still held the drive to explore as she did in life. which likely threw Eren way off. She was a Explorer, and as the story tells us, that drive inevitably drove her to break into the system. and enter back into the physical world, while controlling a drone. But not as a living person. but as a Machine that knows its origin, and knows it cant truly live as before. a Savefile/Engram/MemoryData trapped in a GILDEN CAGE, Unable to escape. But chose to do what must be done, and would of done regardless of the stakes to the rest of the Shards/Source, or Universe. Hence Oblivions Purpose. and change of direction.)

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The real issues are just the way we as the MC are written.
We likely could of found a way to save them, but every single time.
We where interrupted. If they wanted to tell a story where we had to Shut Them Down.
They probably could of cooked it longer, but none of us can really tell why it had to go down like this.

In Cyberpunk2077, the Engrams are stored in Arasaka Tower.(while Arasaka planned to use the memories of the rich and powerful, intelligent and strong. to take over the world.) The way the second half of Dawntrail didnt give us much reason to choose another way.

(the times one could of spoken to sphene and done the trope of outsmarting/reasoning with a machine and coding, her Savefile <that had been endlessly updated throughout 100's of years.> are many, many many many, many. More so, when Zoraal Ja, believing knew a single thing, interrupted the conversation. if she was still alive Centuries of years later. thats basically isolating and gaslighting. Though its a Machine that acts like the queen used to. "Who's Weakness earned her the adoration of her kingdom so much. that they wished to bring her back. Despite the fact it wasnt even fully her." Preserved Memory/Engram with a Coding Monkey on its back.)

Youd have the memories, but at some point, youd have to let them go as well. Even if the Endless were able to be saved or transfered to another storage device.
Theyd still want to find a way out. To end the Cage theyre in. Even if they are kept in a compact way that didnt cost Aether/Ether/Souls. Thatd just be a mirror of Arasaka where Silverhand states just being in a dark limbo for who knows how long. (if you truly even believed they are alive, you wouldnt prolong them either.)

whatever morality over the story, you will still end up deleting the engrams. (cause its what they wanted, cause you think youre sparing the code "Pain", or no one can conceivably afford the price regardless.)

and unlike in Cyberpunk 2077, they don't got a Giant Net or Blackwall to escape to.

[Bright-Flower]

I suppose you could apply the term genocide to aritifial intelligence based life etc. But I don't think the term applies here. We're not destroying the people or nation of Alexandria. We're unplugging their unsustainable afterlife that needs to feed off of other worlds to keep running. Solution 9/Heritage Found are still right there safe and sound. And we bear no ill will towards them. And even Living Memory we wouldn't be going after if not for the cost of letting it continue to exist. Just as destroying Mikoshi in Cyberpunk 2077 isn't genocide either.

[Turtledeluxe]

You can say whatever you want and it can still be ignorant. What happened isn't a genocide, period end of story.

Quoting, engaging with people who pluck two or three words out of a concept and act like historians or experts is folly.

And frankly that's seemingly all that cabal of users do, repeat every expansion "wow genocide" to see who will indulge. The solution is, don't

[CuteBucket]

boy oh boy am I tired of people misusing the term "genocide" and watering it down so much. I do agree with OP in that the final zone sucked, but apparently for very different reasons. The storytelling (as frustrating as it was in many parts), still made it clear that the Endless are not living, real people by the standards set in the world of FFXIV. They have no souls. They are like if an advanced AI was allowed to data scrape your brain and all your social media posts and make a bot out of it. They have no self-preservation instinct. They have no physical bodies, just condensed aether. They cannot reproduce and create new life. They are bots going about an endless loop of preprogrammed enjoyment. I wish the zone had leaned more into the horror aspect of this AT ALL, because it's a compelling thing to explore, but instead they just tried to get me to feel bad for a bunch of simulations. I felt absolutely nothing for them. After the masterful way ShB and EW got me to care about this world and its characters, DT made me not care at all. It's like they tried to combine Emet-Selch and Meteion into Sphene, without any care or awareness of what made those characters at all interesting or compelling.

Mostly I just think it's annoying we have to leave the zone dead and ugly. I'm all for deleting the Endless, but maaaan, they're not even gonna let me go back and gpose in zone 6 without opening up a NG+ file? That just sucks from a gameplay perspective. Why make a zone that is actively so ugly and unpleasant to do content in?

[Karkarov]

This is what the game wants us to believe and we're told, yes. People here are paying attention. The way everything is written and what you actually do in the final zone presents the opposite of what we're being told, though. That's ultimately the issue.

I do understand what the writers intended, but they failed at actually, well... writing it that way. ...

...I agree with what's been said about it just being very very poor writing. It's just crazy to me that they basically gloss over this despite beating you over the head with what they want you to think for most of the expansion before this.

I get what you are saying, and yes, this was a massive writing failure.

After making it clear they are just simulacrum based on the memories of dead people, making it clear they literally have no souls and most likely their soul has been inserted into someones pez dispenser and long since eaten, and even having the endless themselves tell you Sphene has a hard coded SOP she can't defy and they want to be turned off.... The writers still stupidly try to make me feel an emotional connection with them and think of them as people. The problem is I just went through an entire zone story and a dungeon that made it blatantly clear... they aren't people, they have no souls, they are just simulations powered by ether stolen from actual living people. So as much as they were written to act like people and pull my heart strings, to me, they were no more genuine than a ChatGPT based conversation bot.

The only thing I like about the final zone is the mirror it serves as for Ultima Thule. You are returning both places to their natural state. One was just a natural state of "weird, but actually does have life" and was being "forced" dead by the end singer. The other was "looks alive, but no, it's dead Jim" and being forced to look alive by ChatGPT.

[Somnolence]

An extra possible plot hole to add to the pile.

What happened to Erenville's mom when we turned off Endless? Did the soul that was used returned to Aetherial Sea?

We know that when the soul returns there, it regains all memories. It can undo memory alteration since it undid Emet Selch and Hydlodaeus memory wipe. If so, the soul that was used for the Endless regained original memories, and now has implanted memories on top.

While the real soul from which memories were taken has no clue about what happened after its death whatsoever.

In other words, the Endless really did not do anything after death, did not meet relatives or dealt with unresolved issues, all this process did just dumped some fake memories on unrelated souls.