Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

[OdinelStarrei]

No, it's not. People were AVERSE to trying Wind Waker because of the art style. Those who did play Wind Waker had valid complaints but the game was far from called trash.

The feedback Nintendo took from this was appropriate (even if the art style was really great in the end) and that was people didn't really want super cartoony art style for The Legend of Zelda series (at least not the main games).

To draw a parallel, I have friends who weren't interested in DT because of the way the expansion was pitched to us (through live letters and trailers). That's similar to what you saw with Wind Waker and those who didn't like the art style.

To say people playing DT, going through the story and expressing how it was not enjoyable is the same is a false equivalency. That's not an "initial impression".

It's the same as people saying "it's a new start to the story! You can't expect it to be good!"; the run time of the MSQ is longer than most seasons of TV shows and longer than movies by many hours.

How much hand waving is needed to try and get rid of valid criticism?

I didn't enjoy the first half of the story, I didn't like the middle part of the story and I really didn't like the ending. Is that an initial impression or do we need to keep moving the goal post for what/when we can consider feedback valid?

Well obviously, you're supposed to wait 2.5 years for ALL of DT to be out for feedback to be valid, even though DT is guilty of many of the same mistakes EW has had for years now, both in terms of story and gameplay, but by then we can be easily shrugged off by saying "If it's so bad why did you play it for 2.5 years" or "You weren't around for the patches when it got good like in ARR, you're not allowed to complain." depending on which side of the knife we fall on.

The point is that no criticism outside of the ones that are easily agreeable like "lmao square grapes" are going to be seen as anything but whining about nothing, even if the game itself is harmed by such an approach.

[AlexisLestrange]

Going further, Stormblood managed to give character to Lyse, Hien, Yugiri, Gosetsu, Yotsuyu and even Zenos which is a feat in and of itself. All while still giving the WoL moments too. How many did Dawntrail have?

Let's be fair, most of Gosetsu and Yotsuyu's character were built in the patches of Stormblood leading up to the Castrum Fluminis trial. We also had Sphene who I'd dare say had a convincing enough character. We're still in 7.0, so I'm not going to give my full verdict on the whole of DT's story until somewhere as far as 7.2-7.3, maybe 7.4 depending on how far they push it. We didn't see a full conclusion to Shadowbringers until 5.3, and roughly 3.3 with Heavensward.

[Tehmon]

Thought that was a patch moment? In 2.0 itself, he was just annoying, but not in a way that made you sure it was going to go anywhere and get addressed. In the patches, when he gets more arrogant, but the other characters are also showing awareness of it during and in between quests, then you know its going somewhere and its a clear set of flaws that are being addressed.

The difference between Alphinaud and Wuk Lamat is that Alphinaud doesn't go through any significant character arc during ARR until the very end, and the game doesn't pretend otherwise. He is just that smug arrogant holier-than-thou brat throughout ARR until he gets humbled severely and made to eat dirt. He doesn't hog screentime in any sense of the word, and we get plenty of time without Alphinaud tagging along.

Meanwhile Wuk Lamat is actively going through her character arc during 7.0 which is the focus of the entire story, and the game is actively pushing you to see her supposed growth all the way to the end. Her story is done, and it was a terrible story. Or are you suggesting we need several more patches of the writers trying desperately to redeem this joke of a character by forcing more storylines onto her and making her the focus once more? Give me a break, even you don't believe that's the way to go.

The intriguing storylines and narrative beats that existed since 6.55 didn't bear any fruit, and there is no intrigue left in Wuk Lamat. The only thing they could muster up now is if she wants to connect with her biological father, which would honestly just be more '' family this family that '' bs which there is plenty of already in DT.

[Maxilor]

Well obviously, you're supposed to wait 2.5 years for ALL of DT to be out for feedback to be valid, even though DT is guilty of many of the same mistakes EW has had for years now, both in terms of story and gameplay, but by then we can be easily shrugged off by saying "If it's so bad why did you play it for 2.5 years" or "You weren't around for the patches when it got good like in ARR, you're not allowed to complain." depending on which side of the knife we fall on.

The point is that no criticism outside of the ones that are easily agreeable like "lmao square grapes" are going to be seen as anything but whining about nothing, even if the game itself is harmed by such an approach.

I concur.

If I walk into a restaurant and for an appetizer, they serve me a bowl of poop I'm not going to sit around and hope they bring out the Filet Mignon next.

Granted they have done excellent post-patch content in the past (HW) but will it be enough to save Dawntrail? I don't know if many people are willing to wait it out.

[Verathel]

With Alphi there was depth and layering to his actions and arrogance as well. Like when he is founding the Braves he is very well aware that the money he is getting might be used as a way in by the Syndicate to control the Braves. He is confident in his intelligence and the actions he has taken to stop any outside influence.

Yet, what made ARR writing better was that his actions were simply not enough and he underestimated the political aspect of the game...He then suffers the consequences of those actions. It's just better writing.

[Alleluia]

The difference between Alphinaud and Wuk Lamat is that Alphinaud doesn't go through any significant character arc during ARR until the very end, and the game doesn't pretend otherwise. He is just that smug arrogant holier-than-thou brat throughout ARR until he gets humbled severely and made to eat dirt. He doesn't hog screentime in any sense of the word, and we get plenty of time without Alphinaud tagging along.

Meanwhile Wuk Lamat is actively going through her character arc during 7.0 which is the focus of the entire story, and the game is actively pushing you to see her supposed growth all the way to the end. Her story is done, and it was a terrible story. Or are you suggesting we need several more patches of the writers trying desperately to redeem this joke of a character by forcing more storylines onto her and making her the focus once more? Give me a break, even you don't believe that's the way to go.

The intriguing storylines and narrative beats that existed since 6.55 didn't bear any fruit, and there is no intrigue left in Wuk Lamat. The only thing they could muster up now is if she wants to connect with her biological father, which would honestly just be more '' family this family that '' bs which there is plenty of already in DT.

"Even" me? What are you assuming about my opinions, now? lol

I do think, if her character is going to be salvaged from the state the writing has left it in, it will need to have more story attached, yes. Sorry? As I said, I think her Naruto-esque character has the makings of someone enjoyable, if its handled well. I don't hate her on principle.

I don't like how she was given the "solve everything" button a few times, and I don't like how they'd only cut to the WoL in a lot of scenes cus they realized they haven't shown us in a while, and even then it was 90% just to have us nod at her latest emotional appeal in approval, and then go right back to her being the voice of the story.

A lot of my problem with the story isn't Wuk's personality. Its the fact she was the main character instead of us. And I don't mean that in a "I don't like side characters getting the spotlight" kinda way. I've enjoyed plenty of other characters being the center of attention. I love anything with G'raha in it, I enjoyed Krile's story, and Erenville's Shaaloni adventure with me was my favorite part of the xpac. But they have their role and we have ours and Wuk crossed into our lane without earning it. Halfway thru the story, she's saying stuff like how much she's learned from me and how she wants me to call her a pet name and stay in her kingdom permanently, when I'm just sitting there like "... I could have not been there for half of this. I don't hate you or anything, but when did we really bond???" And then there's the final fight (and to a lesser issue the mamook trial) where she just comes in with the win button at the end. The final battle is particularly bad cus the other two that were there had as much, if not more, reason to connect with the final boss; and also had more reason to fight tooth and nail to get back in the arena since they had a deeper bond with us.

But that's not the character's personality that is at fault, that's the writers treating her like a writer's pet and also not plotting well.

[Tehmon]

"Even" me? What are you assuming about my opinions, now? lol

I do think, if her character is going to be salvaged from the state the writing has left it in, it will need to have more story attached, yes. Sorry? As I said, I think her Naruto-esque character has the makings of someone enjoyable, if its handled well. I don't hate her on principle.

I don't like how she was given the "solve everything" button a few times, and I don't like how they'd only cut to the WoL in a lot of scenes cus they realized they haven't shown us in a while, and even then it was 90% just to have us nod at her latest emotional appeal in approval, and then go right back to her being the voice of the story.

A lot of my problem with the story isn't Wuk's personality. Its the fact she was the main character instead of us. And I don't mean that in a "I don't like side characters getting the spotlight" kinda way. I've enjoyed plenty of other characters being the center of attention. I love anything with G'raha in it, I enjoyed Krile's story, and Erenville's Shaaloni adventure with me was my favorite part of the xpac. But they have their role and we have ours and Wuk crossed into our lane without earning it. But that's not the character's personality that is at fault, that's the writers treating her like a writer's pet.

What exactly can salvage this character, like I'm genuinely curious, what plot would you throw at her for the post patches, as her flaws are ironed out already? Because the only way I see to make her likable or even '' decent '' at this point is giving her a massive humiliation ritual and throwing her far, FAR away from WoL's presence.

[Alleluia]

What exactly can salvage this character, like I'm genuinely curious, what plot would you throw at her for the post patches, as her flaws are ironed out already? Because the only way I see to make her likable or even '' decent '' at this point is giving her a massive humiliation ritual and throwing her far, FAR away from WoL's presence.

I mean, you could try distance and just not touch on her for a while, then start fresh after the next expac gives us some distance.

But, barring that and dealing with her again soonish, we could also see another attempt at her having to deal with the realities of rule, this time handled differently. Vrtra could maybe become a mentor for the two Vows and provide his wise insight to her.

Also, the story ends with Solution Nine being unsure about boy-king Gulool and Wuk has stepped forward as his regent, so they seem like they're already going to touch on that plot. Solution Nine is going to be a thorny situation due to, presumably, them having to come to terms with no longer harvesting souls. No where for the memory part to go now, so the whole process is in question. Plus, you know, ethics. I'd like to see Koana and her disagree on it, with Koana on the "Nope, this is wrong and impractical" side and Wuk taking the tact that she took in the last two zones and just be wishy-washy on the point, cus she values peace above all else and also she doesn't necessarily like to think too deeply. And the story should ultimately have Koana ultimately be right and Wuk gaining more reason.

Also, I'd like to explore Koana's backstory and have her be a supportive sister to him. Having her be the support instead of the supported could help her character too.

Koana just generally being the one to teach Wuk things now, so the Vow of Resolve gets tempered by some Reason. Koana already learned the lessons of Resolve in 7.0 itself and has a personality he's working on and growing in to b/c of it.

... I have ideas. >_> lol

[Raven2014]

Let's be fair, most of Gosetsu and Yotsuyu's character were built in the patches of Stormblood leading up to the Castrum Fluminis trial. We also had Sphene who I'd dare say had a convincing enough character. We're still in 7.0, so I'm not going to give my full verdict on the whole of DT's story until somewhere as far as 7.2-7.3, maybe 7.4 depending on how far they push it. We didn't see a full conclusion to Shadowbringers until 5.3, and roughly 3.3 with Heavensward.

But Gosetsu and Yotsuyu entered the stage maybe at a 5 or 6, than at the end there were at 8 or 9/10 character. And they are side characters. Yet they were immediately interesting right at the beginning. After their part were done in 4.0, we don't hear anyone saying "gods I hope I don't ever see them again". Now you look at Wuk and most people wish she will never show up again.

The problem is Wuk was introduced as a 1 or 2, crawl her way up to maybe a 4 or a 5, but her entry in the final fight probably yeet her back to a 1.

While a plain/weak character is easier to develop, it's also a trap of bad first impression. First impression is important, because you only gonna get it one. Especially if you plan for said character to take the center stage while sidelining all the established one, that character needs to hit the ground running from the very beginning. A character given the role of Wuk needs to be already an interesting character day 1, and develop into an amazing character later. You can not afford a character in this role with a weak introduction because that will be just fatal.


The point is, no matter what they have planned for Wuk Lamak in the rest of 7.xx, it's already too late because she won't be judge objectively. But this is not the fault of the players, like I said the developer had to account for human psychology when they decided to create such a pathetic introduction. The other issue is there is very little reason to believe the writing team will be able to do it. Wuk is only the face of the issue, Dawn Trail's writing is weak across the board with a lot of inconsistent hamfisting, non-sensical character developments and terrible pacing.

I mean, you could try distance and just not touch on her for a while, then start fresh after the next expac gives us some distance.

Indeed, this is the only way to fix Wuk, she needs a cool down period. Both for the players prejudice to diminish and for the writer to re-evaluate as a whole. Any immidiate fix I feel will more than likely make her even worse.I can give one (of many) very simple reason: players already feel there is too much Wuk Lamat, and any attempt to fix her will mean we will be given even more Wuk Lamat, that in itself will not go down well.

[Verathel]

They can save her by sidelining her for a bit or write a god tier reality check for her.

Either way if she continues to be the focus in 7.1 it will sour on players, very, very quickly and potentially turn Dawntrail to Shadowlands of WOW. And trust me Square Enix you do not want that.

Shadowlands gets s- on more than any other expansion of WOW primarily due to the story and content drought and normally WOW players don't give a crap about the story for various reasons. Yet, Shadowlands was so bad it broke that mold.