Dawntrail's Final Zones destroy everything the story has built.

[TheMightyMollusk]

On the topic of us deleting them being a "mercy", that simply wasn't our choice to make. We asked like three people out of potentially thousands or more. Outside of one potential dialog option that gets glossed over, no one even really questions it.

In gameplay terms, it's simply not feasible to ask every single person, even among the, at most, hundred or so that were active in Living Memory. In story terms, we still had to deal with Sphene trying to initiate interdimensional fusion, so we didn't have time. (Yes, I know, the game's time scale moves as fast as we complete quests, not on any actual visible timer outside of instanced duties. Story-wise, though, we still had that timer, it just wasn't visible to us as players.)

To address the other points:

For one: you've now completely changed arguments. You were basically claiming they were evil and deserved to be deleted. Now you're saying they weren't alive anyway, so it doesn't matter.

No, my point has been the same either way; There was no other choice. If they're alive, they're complicit, because it's made clear they all knew they were consuming souls; if they're not alive, it doesn't matter. Trying to reframe my arguments doesn't actually change them.

Two: The game itself says you're wrong here. The whole point of the shades in the capstone quest for the EW societies is that they are, in fact, alive. Their existence is different, but they are no less deserving of it than anything or anyone else. The Endless are essentially the same (not that these writers knew about or considered that quest) to the point I struggle to see much difference. In the context of that questline, what we're doing at the end of DT seems downright cruel.

The difference is that the peoples in Ultima Thule aren't consuming other dimensions to sustain their existence. That's kind of a big deal.

Yes, the original Omicrons did conquer and assimilate other worlds, and they're all dead now. We could argue whether the recreated ones in UT deserved a second chance, but that seems like a separate discussion.

Three: If we take both of your arguments as you've presented them, you're contradicting yourself now. You were essentially trying to make the argument that all the Endless are evil for being complicit in genocide, but if they aren't alive, they aren't capable of making choices based on morality. You need to explain how something can simultaneously not be alive and also be evil and/or make any moral judgements.

You shifting arguments here has kinda hurt your point because you can't really claim both.

Again: If they're alive, they're complicit, and if they're not, they're parts of a genocidal machine. There was no shift.

[Arzalis]

In gameplay terms, it's simply not feasible to ask every single person, even among the, at most, hundred or so that were active in Living Memory. In story terms, we still had to deal with Sphene trying to initiate interdimensional fusion, so we didn't have time. (Yes, I know, the game's time scale moves as fast as we complete quests, not on any actual visible timer outside of instanced duties. Story-wise, though, we still had that timer, it just wasn't visible to us as players.)



No, my point has been the same either way; There was no other choice. If they're alive, they're complicit, because it's made clear they all knew they were consuming souls; if they're not alive, it doesn't matter. Trying to reframe my arguments doesn't actually change them.



The difference is that the peoples in Ultima Thule aren't consuming other dimensions to sustain their existence. That's kind of a big deal.

Yes, the original Omicrons did conquer and assimilate other worlds, and they're all dead now. We could argue whether the recreated ones in UT deserved a second chance, but that seems like a separate discussion.



Again: If they're alive, they're complicit, and if they're not, they're parts of a genocidal machine. There was no shift.

You didn't really answer my question. How can something that's not alive be genocidal? A machine doesn't have any concept of such a thing. I think you really need to pick one argument and stick to it because your arguments aren't compatible.

Also, calling them all complicit is odd. No matter what country you live in IRL, it has undoubtedly been responsible for some manner of atrocity in it's history. Are you complicit in that because you directly or indirectly benefit from being a citizen of that country?

It's generally accepted that citizens under a nation, state, sovereign, whatever aren't intrinsically complicit with any acts the ruling body or system they live under commit, doubly so in situations where they seemingly don't have much of a choice in the matter. The Endless we see in the final zone weren't going around killing people and taking their souls, so I'd say your argument falls flat here as well.

[TheMightyMollusk]

You didn't really answer my question. How can something that's not alive be genocidal? A machine doesn't have any concept of such a thing. I think you really need to pick one argument and stick to it because your arguments aren't compatible.

Genocide is the deliberate destruction of a nation or people. Why would something have to be alive to do that? Your constant attempts to shift the goalposts aren't actually changing the argument at all.

Also, calling them all complicit is odd. No matter what country you live in IRL, it has undoubtedly been responsible for some manner of atrocity in it's history. Are you complicit in that because you directly or indirectly benefit from being a citizen of that country?

It's generally accepted that citizens under a nation, state, sovereign, whatever aren't intrinsically complicit with any acts the ruling body or system they live under commit, doubly so in situations where they seemingly don't have much of a choice in the matter. The Endless we see in the final zone weren't going around killing people and taking their souls, so I'd say your argument falls flat here as well.

Their entire society is built around consuming souls the way we'd go through a set of clothes. They talk about it openly, most of them clearly don't consider it a big deal, aside from the Oblivion rebels and Krile's parents. Either they're programs copying memories and can't actually form another opinion, or they're knowingly complicit and accept it as just the way things are. So, again, my argument is still exactly the same as it always has been.

And I for one don't really benefit from my country's atrocities, nor do I condone or participate in them. So that really doesn't help your case.

In any case, we're clearly going in circles here.