Astrologian is getting a 2nd charge of Lightspeed

[Zolvolt]

Have you considered, Zolvolt, that the reason that their AST is still 90 is because they tried the new card system, did not like it, and decided not to level AST because they feel that the gameplay has suffered due to the change to the cards? You don't need to be max level in a job to be able to say that there's certain gameplay issues with it, especially with the cards because nothing affects them from 90-100, they don't get some magical fix via a trait in the 92-100 process

My AST is 96, almost 97. I also have a problem with the card system (that being, it's just budget Aetherflow but I don't get to choose what to spend the stacks on, SE decided for me). I also know someone who's got it to 100, and done the EX dungeons on it, and their opinion on it is roughly similar to what we're saying. Just because you like the job now, doesn't mean that everyone has to. Trying to say 'if you don't have X job at max level, you haven't played it' is very clownshoes behaviour, because if a Job has an issue that presents itself during levelling (for example, a new player might find the new card system to be bad), then that player will decide not to level the job, and level something else instead.

Of course, I expect that my experiences with DT AST do not count, because I'm not level 100 yet. Disregard the fact that I'm a human being, capable of extrapolation based on known data, and therefore able to estimate how AST's gameplay works at 100 based on my experience playing it in previous expansions, my experience playing the current design to level 96, and my experience playing a different healer in EX roulette with a full group of friends (therefore knowing how much damage things do there, and how much healing is required)

The card system isn't even close to what aetherflow is.... tired old talking point that doesn't address anything about ast's cards. It's hard to engage with you guys because you just throw w/e to the wind even though it doesn't apply to the actual job you're complaining about. That said you're free to not like ast but you should at least have experience with it before talking about (which you do, don't want to seem like implying you don't). But what I'd say is just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's bad. But y'all should work on what you draw comparisons to. Cards aren't like aetherflow in any way shape or form. and astro and whm aren't the same job. They have about 4 basic spells (2 of which you arely if ever use) that are the same... False comparisons like these are just a bad faith effort at discussing the job and what you'd rather see. In other words, nobody can take you seriously if you don't actually address the job.

[ForsakenRoe]

The card system isn't even close to what aetherflow is.... tired old talking point that doesn't address anything about ast's cards. It's hard to engage with you guys because you just throw w/e to the wind even though it doesn't apply to the actual job you're complaining about. That said you're free to not like ast but you should at least have experience with it before talking about (which you do, don't want to seem like implying you don't). But what I'd say is just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's bad. But y'all should work on what you draw comparisons to. Cards aren't like aetherflow in any way shape or form. and astro and whm aren't the same job. They have about 4 basic spells (2 of which you arely if ever use) that are the same... False comparisons like these are just a bad faith effort at discussing the job and what you'd rather see. In other words, nobody can take you seriously if you don't actually address the job.

The reason I feel that Aetherflow and Cards have similarities, is because we're given 3 actions, once per minute, both Draw and AF give 20% MP back. People were joking about Draw being Aetherflow before they updated the MP restore to be identical to Aetherflow's. If Aetherflow gave us three buffs, 'Lustrate Ready, Chain Stratagem Ready, Protraction Ready', I don't see how that is so dissimilar to what the new Cards do. Instead of three charges that we can spend on healing, or mitigation, or damage (via Energy Drain), we are told we're only allowed one of each. One damage 'charge', one mitigative, one healing. We don't get to 'choose' what we spend our 'stacks' (cards) on, the effects are decided for us. I never brought up WHM so I don't know why you did.

And another thing that is annoying about the new cards: the 1s Recast on them. Makes doubleweaving them feel awful, hopefully they change that

[Vladmiere]

The card system isn't even close to what aetherflow is.... tired old talking point that doesn't address anything about ast's cards. It's hard to engage with you guys because you just throw w/e to the wind even though it doesn't apply to the actual job you're complaining about. That said you're free to not like ast but you should at least have experience with it before talking about (which you do, don't want to seem like implying you don't). But what I'd say is just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's bad. But y'all should work on what you draw comparisons to. Cards aren't like aetherflow in any way shape or form. and astro and whm aren't the same job. They have about 4 basic spells (2 of which you arely if ever use) that are the same... False comparisons like these are just a bad faith effort at discussing the job and what you'd rather see. In other words, nobody can take you seriously if you don't actually address the job.

There is nothing objectively wrong about points that role perspective. Astrologian is just a part of the bigger issue and that is the healer role itself. This is what has been the homogenization of classes in the game. Astrologian short as of 3 weeks ago was more fun than what we got now. Why do I need my cards to be another defensive/healing buff? The only time something like that was even niche useful was during the bahamut revisit fight where you could stack the shield + neutral sect+ healing buff to time your cooldowns around Ahk Morn into bahamut ultimate allowing Astrologian to pre-empt both damage phases. That is the only thing astrologian has that sets it apart from other classes. It still has a someone higher skill ceiling for lining up rev up spells requiring the astrologian to know the fight in advance to maximize play time. And tha is not really even a major game changer anymore.. I would like my old astro for even fishing for my own buffs compared to what we got now.

[Supersnow845]

Zolvolt we have discussed this before. Your assertion that the APM of AST has gone up relies on the fact that you are going to press every single card as well as sun sign completely on CD and not actually use them for their intended purpose

You shouldn’t need to press sun sign on CD, it’s a long CD mitigation, you don’t need to press the 5 healing cards on CD you don’t always need them

Functional APM has dropped

[Vladmiere]

objectively wrong. Karish and others like them are complaining that astrologian is in a terrible state and yet they have not played astrologian in dawntrail. Their opinion has no experience behind it because they have no played the current iteration of astrologian. Which should be a big deal to you since astrologian is so different from endwalker astrologian. Why should people who have not played the job get any say in whether it is good or bad? I'd also strongly impart to you that astro and whm are not the same job no matter how much certain people claim them to be. This is apparent if you played the two jobs in question.

Ok. We will play the same game then. You are objectively wrong. You have given no points as to why astrologian should not be worked again back to a better iteration of itself. Its not suppose to be a white mage. It is not suppose to be a shield healer. It is suppose to a bridge with greater support then the scholar/sage/white mage. You have not given any valid points to basically anything anyone has said and that is fine. You choose to shut yourself out of the debate by just shutting down the topic itself so we will just leave you out and those with constructive citicism can continue. Se has not told us that they envision the Astrologian as anything other then the iteration I discussed and until SE itself shuts us down I will continue to press for Astrologian to be returned to a more unique area and to start taking steps to break about this blend of one spell dps spam and letting tanks move into our domain.

[Zolvolt]

Zolvolt we have discussed this before. Your assertion that the APM of AST has gone up relies on the fact that you are going to press every single card as well as sun sign completely on CD and not actually use them for their intended purpose

You shouldn’t need to press sun sign on CD, it’s a long CD mitigation, you don’t need to press the 5 healing cards on CD you don’t always need them

Functional APM has dropped

Have you played the extreme trials? (genuine question i am not belittling you if you haven't. Just pointing out extreme trials call for a use of all of your tools right now) you absolutely have a use case for every one of the cards at your disposal. If you're not using them then thats not a problem with a job, thats a problem with the player. You also only need to use the cards within their draw windows (4 card uses per minute) for your apm to not drop. You don't need to use them as soon as they are drawn. You are not losing casts unless you draw over your other cards.

Astrologian is just a part of the bigger issue and that is the healer role itself.

Then say that instead of dumping on astrologian. We all know that healing requirements were low in EW and were unhappy with that. Anyone whose played DT healing can vouche for how much better it has been /so far/

Astrologian short as of 3 weeks ago was more fun than what we got now.

This is subjective, if you truly enjoy "melee card goes to melee and ranged card goes to ranged" over best use cases for a defense, a hot, a shield, and a healiing buff, then you're free to your opinion, but most of us long-time astrologians don't ever want to go back to a version of astro where there is no thought to how you use your abilities.

Why do I need my cards to be another defensive/healing buff? The only time something like that was even niche useful was during the bahamut revisit fight where you could stack the shield + neutral sect+ healing buff to time your cooldowns around Ahk Morn into bahamut ultimate allowing Astrologian to pre-empt both damage phases. That is the only thing astrologian has that sets it apart from other classes. It still has a someone higher skill ceiling for lining up rev up spells requiring the astrologian to know the fight in advance to maximize play time. And tha is not really even a major game changer anymore.. I would like my old astro for even fishing for my own buffs compared to what we got now.

Astro is still tied around heal/mit prep and delayed healing which has always been a part of it's identity that, at least for the moment, it's counterpart whm does not share. It also is the king of "single target" beneficial effects. Which no other healer can compete with them on in any capacity. and SOON astro will also be known as the instant cast- double weave king of healers. (once the lightspeed changes come in) I'd just like to iterate one more time, there is a use-case for every additional healing and mitigation button astro received in the current Extreme trials and in the expert dungeon roulettes. This is a fact, I mean the dungeons and trials are a big step up in damage from endwalker's hydaelyn and zodiark and entry-expert dungeons. If they keep on this track with future trials and the savages then astro's have nothing to fear. But you would have to play the current content as astro to experience this. Every one of the other dawntrail astrologians I have spoken with in game are in love with it and only have minor complaints (like sun sign taking too long to apply it's buff, or the way the draws line up right now even with a 2.4 spellspeed)

The final thing I'd like to add is about tank survability. It's too strong. Tanks should not be able to survive expert dungeons at min ilevel solo. Every tank can except dark knight. At least in the extreme trials a solo tank isn't going to beat enrage, so it's not a big issue there. But tank sustain is just crazy. (though it's not I can solo 6 enemies in w2w pull crazy so there is that)

[Sani2341]

The card system isn't even close to what aetherflow is.... tired old talking point that doesn't address anything about ast's cards. It's hard to engage with you guys because you just throw w/e to the wind even though it doesn't apply to the actual job you're complaining about. That said you're free to not like ast but you should at least have experience with it before talking about (which you do, don't want to seem like implying you don't). But what I'd say is just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's bad. But y'all should work on what you draw comparisons to. Cards aren't like aetherflow in any way shape or form. and astro and whm aren't the same job. They have about 4 basic spells (2 of which you arely if ever use) that are the same... False comparisons like these are just a bad faith effort at discussing the job and what you'd rather see. In other words, nobody can take you seriously if you don't actually address the job.

So "press a button once every minute, that allows you to use three other abilities" is somehow different from "press a button once every minute, that allows you to use three specific other abilities" in any relevant way?

Though then again, at least aetherflow let's you use all charges on energy drain. Rather than Limiting you to one per minute.

But yeah, functionally the new cards are just an even worse off brand aetherflow than addersgal.

[Zolvolt]

So "press a button once every minute, that allows you to use three other abilities" is somehow different from "press a button once every minute, that allows you to use three specific other abilities" in any relevant way?

Though then again, at least aetherflow let's you use all charges on energy drain. Rather than Limiting you to one per minute.

But yeah, functionally the new cards are just an even worse off brand aetherflow than addersgal.

By your standards any 1 minute cd that gives you resources to spend is aetherflow. If thats how you think then you have very little room to speak on class design

[Sani2341]

By your standards any 1 minute cd that gives you resources to spend is aetherflow. If thats how you think then you have very little room to speak on class design

Nah. Just any that are litteraly the same thing with serial numbers filed of.

Like addersgal is more different from aetherflow than the new cards, simply by virtue of putting the mp regen on the skills and regaining charges automaticly.

[Sylvain]

Like addersgal is more different from aetherflow than the new cards, simply by virtue of putting the mp regen on the skills and regaining charges automaticly.

Totally, when I read that draw would give us 20% of our mp back, I didn't bother reading anything else and I thought, "this is just AF".
Addersgale is obviously a totally different system.
How could you compare charges allowing you to do 4 skill, 3 of which have the same CD and the same function among two jobs, with AST who get 5 differents single target effects over 2mins by batches.

So long as AF and Draw give 20% mp back once a minute, they're obviously the exact same skill.

Perhaps they could make us gain 7.5% of our mp when using a card... Ah na that would make it too similar to Addersgale and we'd have a pale copy of this system. But at least it'd feel totally different from AF.
the only solution to make AST feel unique is just to tie the mp regeneration to something else... I suggest Earthlystar giving 15% mp per cast.
Problem fixed, now that MP doesn't come from card, AST is truly different from SCH and SGE since mp management is obviously the #1 mechanic people have on their mind while raiding.

/s in case it wasn't clear enough