DPS Simplification - Just do Ultimates!

[HikariKurosawa]

People love their hunter pets. To use your usual methodology, they sure have sunk tons and tons of resources into the hunter pet system that they probably wouldn't have bothered with if they weren't seeing a good ROI on.

Yeah and the same appeal of hunter in that way can be applied to the limited job in ffxiv. You can play it solo or in unrestricted content and enjoy your pets just fine. It doesn't need to be a normal job for it to appeal to this demographic.

It just doesn't work with their actual game design so they made it a limited job.

So yeah, my methodology still holds up. The other thing that holds up is the dev's integrity to creating the experience they want to create in the game. They are not compromising on the core gameplay for this addition yet are still giving it to us in a way that pet enthusiasts can nearly fully enjoy. In fact, since it is a limited job they will likely be able to enjoy it even more since it can be absolutely broken for balance. If you want to have the most fun with pets, you should be glad it is a limited job.

[Flana]

Yes, I am so excited to have my job niche served by a "job" that cannot do any story (in a story based MMO), cannot do PVP, cannot do Deep Dungeon, cannot do Exploratory zones, and isn't allowed to do any raids or trials until 2+ years after they already released. What a wonderful job idea, truly exciting! It really is the best idea possible!

[Shurrikhan]

Pets are not why hunter is popular lol. Hunter is popular because it is a ranged class based on instant cast abilities. physical ranged playstyle is the reason why hunter is so popular. Look at how many hunters in WoW don't use a pet.

It's the same with warlock, most prefer to just keep imp out and let it throw fireballs while they throw shadowbolts out. Pet jobs are pretty niche, but you're free to pull statements out of god knows where.

One of three specs (by far and away the most popular) is themed entirely around pets. Two of three specs need a pet out for their core rotational abilities to work. Three of three specs need a pet out for their group utilities and core passive buff to work. Only one spec can forgo a pet by actively taking a talent, and it's frequently a slight damage loss in single-target to do so.

I'll agree that pets aren't likely the whole as to why Hunters are popular, but all but one spec has (infrequent) cast or channel times and magical abilities, with the only spec not to have either being the pet-centric spec, but as for "how many Hunters in WoW" don't use a pet, historically (was always an option for at most two of three specs and viable only for one), now, or on the Beta... they're very few.

But hey,

you're free to pull statements out of god knows where.

Assassination rogue, you mean the one that passively applies dots aside from bleeds? It's popular because mutilate and envenom are insanely strong. Dagger rogue has nukes and feels amazing. You're the one who is wrong and I'm sorry but it is what it is. Dots will always be the low point of mmo for the majority.

You do realize where a good half of Envenom's damage comes from, right? And what the other half has historically required?

...If not, it's in Assassination Rogue's venoms ("poisons"). Meaning your non-physical DoTs.
And if you actually wanted "dagger rogue nukes"... you'd have gone Subtlety for the far more powerful finishers and Shadowstrike (previously called Ambush).

Did I say that EVERYONE hates dots? No. Do the majority dislike them? Yes.

Yet there's little to no evidence for this, largely because DoT-centrism, portion of periodic damage, bankability, and ramp are all ultimately separate pieces of spec/job/profession/class design.

Unless an enemy would die before its duration completes, most DoTs are essentially nukes -- soft CDs that recharge separately per target and can therefore be reapplied early for utility purposes and give an advantage in multi-target situations beyond simply switching from ST spam to AoE spam.

Shadow Priest, for instance, has often gotten more of its damage from periodic damage than Affliction, and yet people will call the latter a DoT class and Shadow Priest not.

The game is a business, decisions are made based on what is profitable. Dots are basically at the bare minimum of implementation.

This warrant would offer some evidence for "the majority of people dislike anything to do with DoTs" if and only if the devs consistently and solely made decisions in regard to job design that would land them the greatest amount of profit. Admitted errors and oversights, along with seemingly rather poor analysis of data, would indicate that's not likely the case, however. (And haven't you, yourself, complimented the devs on 'sticking to their initial desired vision regardless of player wants' in their job designs?)

SMN should never have been the dot mage, it made zero sense thematically.

I don't particularly care one way or the other, but... there was indeed thematic reason. Conjurers (and now Thaumaturges) channel through the keepers and resonance of elements through a more innate/innatured connection to them. Arcanists do not have those innate connections, and must instead rely on manipulations of aether quantities itself without element; those manipulations tend to take the form of extreme nauseating afflictions. Summoners and Scholars may then add a focus to their arcanistry in order to emulate / "cheat into being" other magic forms, such as force barriers (through faerie magics) and (as of Endwalker) elemental reconfigurations (via "summon" nuke spells, whereas previously one relied on their Egi for elemental damage).

(The odd one is Thaumaturge, as their source of magic was previously archetypical/"divine", and now it's just the other half of Conjury.)

Whether it fits your notion of a Summoner (be that as a reskinned White Mage, reskinned Black Mage, hybrid of the two, or something focused more on what isn't merely renamed WHM/BLM spells) or not, it made thematic sense within the world established here, in XIV.

[HikariKurosawa]

I'll agree that pets aren't likely the whole as to why Hunters are popular, but all but one spec has (infrequent) cast or channel times and magical abilities, with the only spec not to have either being the pet-centric spec, but as for "how many Hunters in WoW" don't use a pet, historically (was always an option for at most two of three specs and viable only for one), now, or on the Beta... they're very few.

You mean the most popular hunter spec is the one that only has instant cast abilities and is the most mobile class in the entire game? I get it, I played BM hunter too. The pets were fun, but the reason I played the spec was because it had the simplest rotation and had the most mobility by far.

Thanks for making my point for me, as it's been a while since I played WoW.

[Shurrikhan]

You mean the most popular hunter spec is the one that only has instant cast abilities and is the most mobile class in the entire game? I get it, I played BM hunter too. The pets were fun, but the reason I played the spec was because it had the simplest rotation and had the most mobility by far.

Thanks for making my point for me, as it's been a while since I played WoW.

And yet, you hop on the forums or check anonymous polls, and the most cited reason for playing Beast Mastery is... the pets. Granted, maybe some, even when anonymous, aren't quite so brazen in just wanting the greatest reward for least effort, but we simply have no evidence beyond that by which to differentiate between ease and pets as the primary attractor since they're both on the same spec.

[HikariKurosawa]

And yet, you hop on the forums or check anonymous polls, and the most cited reason for playing Beast Mastery is... the pets. Granted, maybe some, even when anonymous, aren't quite so brazen in just wanting the greatest reward for least effort, but we simply have no evidence beyond that by which to differentiate between ease and pets as the primary attractor since they're both on the same spec.

People lie about why they do things all the time. What makes a person sound better? "I play BM because it is easy and has no mobility restrictions at all", "I just like the pets I swear!"

People will often say things to save face. What's your point? Everyone is wearing a mask.

[Shurrikhan]

People lie about why they do things all the time. What makes a person sound better? "I play BM because it is easy and has no mobility restrictions at all", "I just like the pets I swear!"

People will often say things to save face. What's your point? Everyone is wearing a mask.

Since you're keen to ignore most of the post, I guess I should expect you to miss also...

anonymous polls

Alas, what else should I figure if someone is to dismiss virtually any fact or position that doesn't vindicate making jobs as easy as possible?

[HikariKurosawa]

Since you're keen to ignore most of the post, I guess I should expect you to miss also...



Alas, what else should I figure if someone is to dismiss any position that doesn't vindicate making jobs as easy as possible?

You think people don't lie to themselves to make themselves feel better? It's probably the most common instance of the behavior I described.

[Lusarae]

I have a message for all the dps out there complaining about removing positionals, removing DoTs, removing rotational complexity etc.

STFU and go play ultimates

If you want to use all your buttons? Ultimates You’re a Summoner and want your repetitive rotation to be fun? Ultimates . Melee sad about positionals barely existing? Ultimates

New DPS are going to be STRUGGLING so hard that they should have their entire role reduced to a single button. That way nobody can ever be stressed in a dungeon ever again. If you want to use more than 1 button as a dps? Play. Fucking. Ultimates

Very sad that I have to specify but this post is intended as ironic. I’m sick of people acting like Ultimates are some kind of fucking super remedy that will magically remove any and all dissatisfaction with the game, and if you’re ever unhappy you basically deserve it for being friendless static-less scum bag who hasn’t cleared ultimates. Yet somehow people genuinely think telling Healers to fuck off and play ultimates is a reasonable and legitimate response to people disliking healer gameplay

There's a catch.

If you make classes too complicated to play... you run into the issue where you dumb down the raid mechanics to compensate. Since our brains can only focus on so much going on at once. If you don't dumb down the raids you essentially encourage the player base to be more reliant on illegal mods. With or without square's permission.

Your job is something you're always going to play. Something that will be in every fight. Its gonna be the same no matter what. Bosses are the games best option to actually make content engaging, by actually being the variable the devs have total and complete freedom to change. Making things as hard or easy as they want to. The fight is what you're going to get the most fun out of. So having the focus be more on the fight, and less trying to keep up with the mere basics of your class is a better trade off. You can't do both otherwise we go back into WoW territory where everyone basically needs DBM to keep playing the game.

[Connor]

Your job is something you're always going to play. Something that will be in every fight. It’s gonna be the same no matter what. Bosses are the games best option to actually make content engaging, by actually being the variable the devs have total and complete freedom to change. Making things as hard or easy as they want to. The fight is what you're going to get the most fun out of. So having the focus be more on the fight, and less trying to keep up with the mere basics of your class is a better trade off. You can't do both otherwise we go back into WoW territory where everyone basically needs DBM to keep playing the game.

You say that, but you’re forgetting the biggest caveat of encounter difficulty:
content cannot be challenging because casuals might die .

So basically what you’re saying is we can’t have interesting jobs because bosses, but we also can’t have interesting bosses because casuals. So literally we just get nothing and we’re supposed to be thanking them for it ?

Idk man. I really don’t think it’s going to make content literally ‘uncompleteable’ if they made damage-over-time abilities actually exist, giving jobs active ways to buff/debuff the party, actually utilising cleansable status effects, giving healers more incentive to heal, giving tanks reasons to use their tank busters, etc. Seems like a bit of a scapegoat to say ‘well jobs are always going to be simplistic and minimalist otherwise we won’t be allowed to have fun/interesting encounters’

Personally I don’t think it’s acceptable for them to refuse to make jobs unique and interesting because ‘then we have to make it so bosses have no mechanics’. Like, we can have both . We have had both in the past . They didn’t just stop giving raids mechanics in Heavensward or Stormblood when jobs were a bit more complex, why would they have to do it now?

For the part about third-party programs, I don’t understand the relevance. People already use them anyway? Including for Savage/Ultimates. And those that do will usually swear that you cannot do the content without it (hmm…lol). So literally nothing would change anyway.

As an aside, are these challenging encounters in the room with us now? Seems a pretty hot take to basically say ‘if you want to have fun with your job you need to do challenging savage or ultimate content’. In a thread about why that isn’t a valid response lol