Finished the MSQ - Feels bad, pushed to do evil [Spoilers inside]

[Shialan]

but that we didn't even try to find a solution where both worlds can coexist. If we had tried every reasonable approach and nothing worked, it would be still sad, but a more reasonable thing to do.

Who would we find this solution for? Have not played the same story? Sphene did not want to find any other solution. She was so far gone in her own world that she could not see any other way out.

It feels as if a lot of people never met people who do not want to listen to your help. Who only see their way.

[Galvuu]

Who would we find this solution for? Have not played the same story? Sphene did not want to find any other solution. She was so far gone in her own world that she could not see any other way out.

It feels as if a lot of people never met people who do not want to listen to your help. Who only see their way.

At no point did any of the Scions or the WoL push forward a genuine solution. It was all a bunch of:
"Is there no other way...? I know you're a good person, but I love my people too...!"
Never was an actual solution proposed.
We see from Ottis being alive in his robot body for centuries that something clearly might be done. We have the knowledge of Sharlayan, of Allag, of Garlemald.
The Garleans had their mind upload thing when they were researching the Echo in Stormblood, the Allagans can do something similar and pseudo-revive people with stable clones that do not necessitate an aether drain (as seen with Xande), Sharlayans have God knows what else, the Exarch had his mind from the First transplanted to the Source using knowledge that only Allag and the First alchemists have.
We have gathered a titanic wealth of knowledge across civilizations, dimensions and time itself that Sphene cannot even imagine.
And some of our greatest scholars are present right there. And none of them bring any of these up- hell, Krle was involved in the Echo incident in Stormblood.
Much like the scions never bother bringing up they can cure the paralyzed boy's sickness, caused by an aetheric imbalance that sounds suspiciously like tempering.

Sphene was set on her ways and might have never been convinced, and maybe none of this technology would've worked, but we'll never know because we didn't freaking try.

[Loggos]

We see from Ottis being alive in his robot body for centuries that something clearly might be done.

I think the problem with Otis is that he still has his original soul, i.e. the core of his "true self" to which his memories belong.

For some reason it seems like your memories need to belong to the right "core"/soul to be indefinitely powered by it.

If you could use any soul then the endless wouldn't have an energy problem because then you would just need as many souls as you have endless, tack their memories onto that soul and they'd be good forever.

But it seems like this is not possible. Instead they need to extract some special life force, that is not aether, from souls and only that life force can be used to sustain the endless, but also it is not enough to power them forever even though a single soul can power the existence of its person (and their memories) forever, as long as their body lives forever in the mortal realm (see Otis whose soul still seems to be fine and dandy after centuries thanks to his immortal robo vessel).

(I hate this whole concept so much. Make it make sense.)

Otis' existence is really annoying because Alexandrians had basically figured out a near perfect solution but went for the unsustainable one instead.

Transplanting souls into immortal bodies that seem to have reasonable and solvable energy demands, and that can live forever with good care (and might also be immune to thunder aether disease)? No, let's use the cloud that is an energy black hole....

Yes, the scions are idiots for not even considering any other solution. But the OG Alexandrians are at least equally as stupid.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Who would we find this solution for? Have not played the same story? Sphene did not want to find any other solution. She was so far gone in her own world that she could not see any other way out.

It feels as if a lot of people never met people who do not want to listen to your help. Who only see their way.

The kids. We should have found another solution for the themepark kids. Otis. We should have found another solution for Otis. The parents of half the people we're with. We should have found another solution for those people. The man who has been waiting centuries to finally marry the woman he loves. We should have found another solution for him. All those feeling, thinking people with dreams and ambitions. We should have found another solution for all of them. The 90% of them saved on the server carrying the culture and history of an entire world. We should have found another solution for them. Just because a little girl whose will is being influenced by a program couldn't find a better way forward didn't mean we shouldn't have at least tried. But instead we hung around, saw a few sights and then deleted innocent people. When the issue wasn't their memories being preserved, but the method by which they were given bodies. We could have saved the data and then had all the time in the world to figure out a way for them to have bodies that didn't require the souls of other living beings.

We would've been at odds with them either way. The story memories into something is one thing, gathering souls into a quantifiable and usable thing is a whole different story. Delaying their end with the tradeoff being having to end a different life-form's and extracting their soul for consumption. Not only were souls being made into a commodity that could be exchanged with currency, but also it would become a finite resource. They would either turn on themselves, or their paranoia for death would push them to invade other shards and the source to steal their souls.
We would've had to make this decision in the future anyways.

I haven't finished because after I killed the kids I needed a break. But from my understanding we did nothing to destroy their soul cleansing machine and therefore the people of Everkeep are still functioning off the same currency they always have which means that no, Erenville won't find his mother in the aetherial sea as her memories have already been extracted and now deleted and her soul is a token in someone's headpiece.

[Shialan]

Otis. We should have found another solution for Otis.

You mean the guy who we saw DYING after he sacrificed himself? They made it so clear that the Otis in the Living Memories was not the same Otis we met in Heritage Found.

And for the rest, you clearly didn't understand what the story was trying to tell.

There was NO TIME for us to try and find any other way. Have you not played the story? After we beat Zoraal Ja, Sphene told us what she is going to do and vanished. Only after we traveled through the gate did we get told by Cahciua what we even could do to stop that plan.

We even stood in front of Meso Terminal, trying to reason with Sphene, but she just told it us that it is too late and she sees no otther way. Who do you think would we try to reason with to find another way? All while the computer was calculating the fusion stuff.

[GrizzlyTank]

You mean the guy who we saw DYING after he sacrificed himself? They made it so clear that the Otis in the Living Memories was not the same Otis we met in Heritage Found.

And for the rest, you clearly didn't understand what the story was trying to tell.

There was NO TIME for us to try and find any other way. Have you not played the story? After we beat Zoraal Ja, Sphene told us what she is going to do and vanished. Only after we traveled through the gate did we get told by Cahciua what we even could do to stop that plan.

We even stood in front of Meso Terminal, trying to reason with Sphene, but she just told it us that it is too late and she sees no otther way. Who do you think would we try to reason with to find another way? All while the computer was calculating the fusion stuff.

And us walking through parks giving people their last send off as we headed for the consoles took at most a few hours. Compared to finding working solutions to the problem which would have taken months to years to make functional. Sphene gave us no time. It was either now or another calamity.

Not to mention that the endless are also fairly accepting to the predicament they were in. Even Outis understood that Espene wasn't the queen he swore to protect.

[Eyrilona]

Not to mention that the endless are also fairly accepting to the predicament they were in. Even Outis understood that Espene wasn't the queen he swore to protect.

There is a reasonable problem with this this though -- all those people agreeing with the need for their own destruction, are written in by the devs that themselves believe they are right about their story being good, so we know they are crafted to loyally to the intent of the writers defend the indefensible. There is no independent source of fact there.

The way the MSQ story goes is true and good, because the way the MSQ story goes teaches us so. It is totally circular, and building an argument on that will never be able to convince someone who is already outside the circle looking at it from the outside. Our characters are inside the story nodding it along, but we players exist outside the game, and are capable of looking at it from the outside by definition.

[Tethan]

There is a reasonable problem with this this though -- all those people agreeing with the need for their own destruction, are written in by the devs that themselves believe they are right about their story being good, so we know they are crafted to loyally to the intent of the writers defend the indefensible. There is no independent source of fact there.

This is the Holy Book paradox by just another name, with the MSQ in the role of the Holy Book -- The Holy Book is true and good, because the Holy Book teaches us so. The way the MSQ story goes is true and good, because the way the MSQ story goes teaches us so. It is totally circular, and building an argument on that will never be able to convince someone who is already outside the circle looking at it from the outside. Our characters are inside the story nodding it along, but we players exist outside the game, and are capable of looking at it from the outside by definition.

Exactly, as I said before arguing semantics (or ethics) when the writing is this poor is a waste of time and effort. There is a time and place for this kind of discussion, but this isn't it.

The problem isn't whether or not this or that is the morally correct choice, the problem is that the story is told so poorly it causes this amount of confusion in the first place. The WoL (and friends) isn't meant to be some morally gray character, where you are never really sure if they are right or wrong in their actions. On the contrary, they are portrayed as a Paragon type of character, a true hero. That there is any doubt as to whether or not this is the correct course to take, is in itself a problem.

They mixed metaphors and gestured to some vague "what is a human" tropes while trying to portray the theme of letting go and accepting death/grief, but those are not complementary with each other. Maybe a very skilled writer could pull it off, I don't know, but they were clearly not skilled enough.

[Loggos]

Exactly, as I said before arguing semantics (or ethics) when the writing is this poor is a waste of time and effort. There is a time and place for this kind of discussion, but this isn't it.

The problem isn't whether or not this or that is the morally correct choice, the problem is that the story is told so poorly it causes this amount of confusion in the first place. The WoL (and friends) isn't meant to be some morally gray character, where you are never really sure if they are right or wrong in their actions. On the contrary, they are portrayed as a Paragon type of character, a true hero. That there is any doubt as to whether or not this is the correct course to take, is in itself a problem.

They mixed metaphors and gestured to some vague "what is a human" tropes while trying to portray the theme of letting go and accepting death/grief, but those are not complementary with each other. Maybe a very skilled writer could pull it off, I don't know, but they were clearly not skilled enough.

This is the reason why by the end of the MSQ I didn't even care about the story's resolution anymore and I simply and very comfortably reject whatever logical implications this should have about my WoL.

My WoLs are my characters. The story I create for them comes first.
The MSQ is a story/characterisation that others write (and superimpose) on me. Most of the time the story is good enough, so it works.
But if the story you write "for me" is so bad and absurd that it turns my characters into a parody of themselves, then I just reject it.
SE can make it canon all they want, I don't care. I won't let my WoLs' characters be dictated by some amateur writers who read the WikiHow page on philosophy.

If they can't write a proper story for my characters then they also don't deserve that I acknowledge it.
For all I care, the MSQ never happened the way it did. I'll just take the dungeons and environments and fill them with my own ideas.