Feedback: Dawntrail MSQ thoughts

[Alenore]

The problem isn't that we got all that.

The problem is that Wuk Lamat is a textbook-case of "Mary Sue":

- Getting the majority of the screentime and dialog, making other characters severely underdeveloped (example: Zoraal Ja's goals and motivations are mentioned in like 10 lines in total) or Gabool Ja speedrunning his redemption arc in order to not steal WukLamats spotlight.

- getting plotarmor against Gabool Ja and half an army and taking him out, despite being fought off effortlessly before.

- No serious characterflaws (not likeing alpacas or being seasick doesnt count, or is even more embarassing, considering she's a 6'6 buff warrior, absolute cringe)

- She is never forced to do a morally grey decision, best example is with the red-armored HokYuj. Before they fight, some random fucking bird just attacks all of the sudden, so WukLamat can heroicly "save" her enemy and befriend them".
Imagine what kind of interessting dilemma she could have faced, if she had to kill in self defense, but her status as spotless hero is saved by coincidence, --> no character progession.

Textbook-case of "Mary Sue".

A Mary Sue is a character with no meaningful flaws.

I'm not sure we've played the same game. Wuk Lamat is shown multiple time as someone who is inadequate, but relies on other people to manage to do what's expected of her, or what she wants to do.
- She comes seeking allies (us), and is shown as impulsive and brash ;
- All throughout the first half of the story, she refuses to admit when she's in over her head ;
- She's rather naive, to the point she's following a perfect stranger and gets kidnapped for her trouble ;
- While showing some skill with a weapon, she's easily outclassed by several characters: Gulool Ja Ja, WoL, Zoraal Ja, etc ;

I don't know about you, but an impulsive, incompetent and naive girl doesn't strike me as the perfect ruler or a mary sue.
She grows while travelling with us, learn about her motivations, and mostly learn to rely on other people's strength. This is pretty much why Bakool Ja Ja is now with the Landsguard and she shared the Dawntrail mantle with Koana. She's not singlehandedly soloing Sphene and Zoraal Ja while we have rest.

I suppose you mean Bakool Ja Ja's fight, in which she fills a LB bar out of nowhere multiple times, which we can most likely attribute to her resolve not to lose, save her father, and win the succession (which arguably fits the definition of how Dynamis would help).
On that subject, from like the 2nd cutscene with Bakool, he hints that he has to win for his people. He's driven for a reason. I agree there should be consequences to releasing a literal incarnation of death upon the continent, but ehhh we've handwaved worse as Scions amirite.

About the morally grey decision, we're literaly coming from two expansions of ancients doing pretty dubious choices being either handwaved or directly condemned. The story was meant to be more lighthearted (at least the first half lol).

As for her screentime, this is literally an expansion about helping some girl become the Dawnservant, of course she's going to have screen time.
What would you like for Zoraal Ja exactly, that he repeats us a 7th time that he wants "to unite everybody after they're sick of war"?

Now, if all that is your definition of a Mary Sue, every single Scion is a Mary Sue. We always somehow find the perfect solution for everybody. We (all of us) manage to beat impossible odds.
Did you have the feeling Thancred was a Mary Sue when he single handedly beat Ran'jit, after he kicked our ass?
Or when we solo'd Zenos who wiped a city and us in it? Or when we kill an Ancient empowered by the memories of all those he wanted to save?
Or when somehow, Emet Selch plot armor'd us out of the Aetherial Rift thanks to a magic crystal we apparently used without knowing?
What meaningful flaws does WoL have?
Or Y'shotla for that matter. if we're going with "but WoL is us so it's fine".

If that's the reason you don't like Wuk Lamat, you probably shouldn't play this game and JRPGs because all that is pretty much the norm.

[honest_psycho]

I suppose you mean Bakool Ja Ja's fight, in which she fills a LB bar out of nowhere multiple times, which we can most likely attribute to her resolve not to lose, save her father, and win the succession (which arguably fits the definition of how Dynamis would help).

I don't care about the exact mechanics or about how she defeated Bakool JaJa. I'm talking about that she defeated him AND half an army BY HERSELF. With us just standing besides not doing anything. This is not only plot armor, it lets us, the Warrior of light, look incompetent.

- She's rather naive, to the point she's following a perfect stranger and gets kidnapped for her trouble ;

And why didn't Bakool Ja just kill here right there? No one could have proven it was him, his "smart head" should 100% have made that suggestion.
The fact, that she wasn't killed, is plotarmor.

What would you like for Zoraal Ja exactly, that he repeats us a 7th time that he wants "to unite everybody after they're sick of war"?

No, I wanted to know WHY he had that goal in the first place.
We didn't get ANY kind of flashback in his childhood, or any interaction with his dad that would have warranted his anger.
Also, didn't Krile get a bit of inside of his "dark thoughts" in his introduction?
Why didnt she tell WukLamat "hey, your brother has some dark thoughts, maybe you should try to know him better, like you try to know all the people in Tural, which is kinda the point of this whole fucking story"?

He was underdeveloped on purpose so that WukLamat doesn't have to "know him better" and just kill him, cause its objecitvely the "good" thing to do for her as the Hero. Imagine if Emet-Selch didnt try to talk to us and just did what he planned to do anyways.

As for her screentime, this is literally an expansion about helping some girl become the Dawnservant, of course she's going to have screen time.

I'd agree up until she was made Queen.
But then she STILL got the majority of the lines. She was still around for Erenvilles and Kriles arc there she absolutely had to get some lines in for some reason.

If that's the reason you don't like Wuk Lamat, you probably shouldn't play this game and JRPGs because all that is pretty much the norm.

Isn't it weird that most people, me included, liked ShB/EW, but don't like DT because of WukLamat?
Why do you think that is?

[Ilenya]

And why didn't Bakool Ja just kill here right there? No one could have proven it was him, his "smart head" should 100% have made that suggestion.
The fact, that she wasn't killed, is plotarmor.

To be fair, if he did kill Wuk Lamat there, he wouldn't have had the chance to steal the sixth keystone from her. Now obviously this failed, but he considered her the weakest by far, so she would be an easy target for getting the keystones he missed, at least in his mind.

Now why he decided to do it piecemeal and not wait until he could grab all at once is another question entirely.

[Rookie1]

I'd agree up until she was made Queen.
But then she STILL got the majority of the lines. She was still around for Erenvilles and Kriles arc there she absolutely had to get some lines in for some reason.

A little further for me. I think Wuk Lamat's presence was acceptable up to the 2nd trial. She had a purpose/stake in seeing her brother dead. I was okay with her up till there. But that is it for me. She should have left the party after the return to tuyilolyal. Krile and Enenes'shypa should have taken center stage as well as the WoL. Sphene is a WoL problem.
Even Raubaun had the sense that zenos wasn't his problem.

[Tracewood]

Looks like this expansion gave our WoL more of a supporting role while Wuk Lamat took center stage, kind of like earlier Final Fantasy games where there is no "main" character, just everyone supporting each other. I think of Tidus from X, or Vaan from XII where at first glance, yeah they're main characters until you play the game and it's the other characters that move the story along.

And I gotta say, for once it's good to have an NPC that doesn't want to stand around while our WoL does all the work. Maybe some players wanted to play the big hero yet again, this time we get an NPC that was capable after a long journey from being shonen trope to someone that

eases in to her role as ruler.

[honest_psycho]

And I gotta say, for once it's good to have an NPC that doesn't want to stand around while our WoL does all the work..[/HB]

I'd agree, but they overdid it way too much.

[TaleraRistain]

A little further for me. I think Wuk Lamat's presence was acceptable up to the 2nd trial. She had a purpose/stake in seeing her brother dead. I was okay with her up till there. But that is it for me. She should have left the party after the return to tuyilolyal. Krile and Enenes'shypa should have taken center stage as well as the WoL. Sphene is a WoL problem.
Even Raubaun had the sense that zenos wasn't his problem.

This. I loved Wuk Lamat and I loved helping her in the rite of succession. I was even happy to have her there through the second trial since that was her fight. But that's the point where she should have left the story. Then it would have allowed the WoL and the player to develop a personal connection with the antagonist. I was unfortunately missing that in this expansion in comparison to prevoius expansions. We also carry the soul of Azem, who was both a wanderer and a protector of the star. It was our place to fight that fight, not Wuk Lamat. It would have capped off the expansion nicely, as Wuk Lamat's mentor stepped up to handle their normal duties.

I've seen complaints that the city leaders in previous expansions used the WoL as nothing but a weapon. But I never felt that way. I felt they relied upon us and looked to us for help. Here, I felt like the WoL was just a weapon being pointed at something.

[Alenore]

I don't care about the exact mechanics or about how she defeated Bakool JaJa. I'm talking about that she defeated him AND half an army BY HERSELF. With us just standing besides not doing anything. This is not only plot armor, it lets us, the Warrior of light, look incompetent.

"Let me handle it, they're small fry" => we don't intervene. Like, isn't it pretty much what she asked us to do?

And let me get this straight, you don't care why she was able to defeat them, but you care that she defeated them and find it stupid because there's no justification... Because you don't care about it?
There's a topic on this subforum about arguing in good faith, i suggest reading it.

And why didn't Bakool Ja just kill here right there? No one could have proven it was him, his "smart head" should 100% have made that suggestion.
The fact, that she wasn't killed, is plotarmor.

Yeah, why didn't Bakool Ja Ja kill everybody in their sleep at the inn too, including the daughter of the current queen. Because he's not a cold blooded killer and isn't shown as one, anywhere? He doesn't see Wuk Lamat as even a real competition because she's sheltered. He's only thinking about killing us when he loses his temper, and the Mystic head calms him.
The way he's portrayed in game doesn't match what you're saying.

No, I wanted to know WHY he had that goal in the first place.
We didn't get ANY kind of flashback in his childhood, or any interaction with his dad that would have warranted his anger.

He's the miracle child of an almost legendary ruler who united a whold continent, put an end to a century long feud, locked away a mythical beast supposed to be the strongest being on the continent.
He states his goal as wanting to unite the wholeworld under his banner.
Multiple people states the circumstances of his birth and the fact he's the sole blood heir to the throne weighed heavy on him.
He clearly wanted to prove he could match or even beat his father's prowess.

Also, didn't Krile get a bit of inside of his "dark thoughts" in his introduction?
Why didnt she tell WukLamat "hey, your brother has some dark thoughts, maybe you should try to know him better, like you try to know all the people in Tural, which is kinda the point of this whole fucking story"?

You mean tell Wuk Lamat, the girl who told us she had to win the throne becuase that guy in particular couldn't be allowed to be the next king because he means to bring war to the whole world? She knows.
This is literally why we're in Tural lol.

He was underdeveloped on purpose so that WukLamat doesn't have to "know him better" and just kill him, cause its objecitvely the "good" thing to do for her as the Hero. Imagine if Emet-Selch didnt try to talk to us and just did what he planned to do anyways.

This is a bad argument when, in the same patch, we had Bakuul Ja Ja who was set up as a bad guy, and had Wuk Lamat understand his motivation and accept him.
The difference with Zoraal Ja is he had no real good reason except his own ambition, and doesn't mind killing Turali people, his own Alexandrian people, and his dad to prove he's better. Wuk Lamat considers that as a crossing a line, so did Guluul Ja Ja, and even Gulool Ja agrees that his father is bad and has to be stopped. He was shown as a bad king who neglected his subjects and diverted resources for his war effort instead of helping his citizens.

I'd agree up until she was made Queen.
But then she STILL got the majority of the lines. She was still around for Erenvilles and Kriles arc there she absolutely had to get some lines in for some reason.

I truly wonder why Wuk Lamat, who felt a connection with Sphene and feels some kind of responsibility for the population in Solution 9, would want to confront her and try to change her mind before she commits mass murder.
I think you've made clear that you don't like her, and anything she is shown saying or doing won't find any grace to your eyes. Even during the cutscene where Urianger met Moenbryda's father, we had Loporrits and Thancred talking. I don't see you pesting about that stupid mary sue Livingway who somehow has no flaws and perfect knowledge about space travel.

Isn't it weird that most people, me included, liked ShB/EW, but don't like DT because of WukLamat?
Why do you think that is?

I think you overestimate how many people don't like the expansion, even more so because of a single character.

[AureliaF]

I adored the music, fights, and environments in this expansion, so all my appreciation to those individuals and teams. Tural really felt like a massive continent with so many beautiful biomes and cultures. I loved every bit of that.

But yeah, as for the story that brought us around said environments...

Leaving Wuk Lamat aside for now, I have to stress, I do not at all mind being more in the role of an attache on an initially political/diplomatic mission. It's set up early that we're not front and center here, and that's totally fine. That does not mean that all possibility of warm and fun character moments with... OTHER characters than Wuk Lamat should be essentially erased (exaggerating a bit, but it doesn't feel like it during the story flow).

The Scions, the characters we met in Tuliyollal, Koana, Dad Dawnservant, Erenville, Bakool Ja Ja, and I know I'm forgetting many, these are old and new friends that we had SO few warm moments/lines with. All the dialogue, all the interaction, was just overfocused on Wuk Lamat. We're there to support her bid, yes. But not to the exclusion of all else. The Scions especially, we've been with them for ten years... this is the time to enjoy lots of fun payoff moments of our close friendships. If they're in the expansion, why are they 90% ignoring that the WoL is even there? There was so much potential for good dialogue and connections "in the background" of Wuk Lamat's whole shenanigans that would've made dealing with her more palatable overall. (I don't hate Wuk Lamat at all, I just think she got way, WAY too much of the dialogue for a character that I feel mid about at best.)

I felt that Erenville and Krile had MUCH more interesting stories going on, and yet, not only did they get stuffed into the final act, most of it was just exposition dumped on us in the final moments of the final map. I SO wished that we could have started unravelling threads of Erenville and Krile's respective stories muuuuch much sooner (we get a little of that with Erenville, granted, during that initial section after crossing to Xak Tural). Bakool Ja Ja's "redemption arc" was so rushed and underdeveloped as to make me roll my eyes at its believability. There was some amazing foundation laid for it at his home, but it didn't get nearly the time it deserved.

tl;dr: I don't care about being the center of attention; I care about having deeper interactions with all the characters in an expansion, especially if those characters have majorly important personal investment to the events of the expansion.

[honest_psycho]

I don't see you pesting about that stupid mary sue Livingway who somehow has no flaws and perfect knowledge about space travel.

What in the absolute fuck are you talking about?
What does this un-important support character have to do with Wuk Lamat, who got an entire Expansion dedicated to her?

The issue is not her Personality (which I kinda liked in the EW post content), or her philosophies.
The issue is the fact that the other characters dont get the screentime they deserved, and that WE, the player, get comepletely sidelined. (Read my other comments)

And then you try to build up a strawman of me being a "fan" of some side-character that nobody even cares about?

You also tried to avoid answering the question of "Why is Wuk Lamat so disliked?" (see the Steam reviews if you think shes's popular).
I dont wanna hear why you LIKE her.
I want to her YOUR theory about why other people don't.