#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Aidorouge]

Also, all this talk about "MSQ must be viably doable for low skill players so we can't make the game too hard". First thing; Duty Support/Squadrons/Trusts exist to clear most (if not all) dungeons in the simplest way possible. In fact, I would *love* an expansion on the Squadron system (if only to have squadmates of the other races they added later), but for some reason Square wants them locked into Heavensward content forever, and they don't seem inclined to add story/solo versions of Trails/Raids despite how much story gets locked behind them (Crystal Tower being the most grievous example of "you must be this good to see the rest of the game").

Secondly, PVP shows they *can* make alternate versions of skills with *completely* different affects and hot bar setups for a different mode. I would much rather they just gave the MSQ-only dungeon/trial/raid crowd their own batch of skills in that exact solo content, while everyone else hitting up Duty Finder/Party Finder got *their* own batch of skills more in line with the engagement they want. It doesn't have to be a "one or the other" approach when it comes to adapting to different levels of challenge. Hell, you could even give the Savage/Ultimate crowd *their* own versions of tweaked skills if they want them. The concept isn't impossible, PVP proves it, tis' just a matter of:

1. How much Square-Enix is willing to make differing skills and traits between modes?
2. Would the playerbase even *want* a dynamic set of skills to accommodate different levels of personally desired content?

Job changing, a key mechanic of the game (if not a large part of the franchise) is already a thing we do, let's just take it to the next logical step if accessibility and challenge are equal cravings and the code under the hood is already there, taunting us with the possibilities. I mean, shucks, I wouldn't mind a version of MNK & BLM I enjoyed playing, but I wouldn't want it at the expense of MNK & BLM mains who *already* liked those jobs as they were. Insert that one meme about Miguel and Tulio saying both is good.

Why, they wouldn't even need to put much work into so many different kits per mode with all of the additional skills it would ask for. Anyone got a body count on the number of skills that have been removed *this expansion alone*? No sense letting all those old animations go to waste~

[GrimGale]

This one here definitely confuses me the most.

Like, even putting aside my chronic lack of desire to tank/heal in PVE player group content no matter how "non-anxious" they make the roles, I will also say I was not the biggest fan of MNK & BLM prior to Dawntrail because I just couldn't keep track of how all their mechanics work and found them complicated to play with no real satisfaction even when I accidentally did it correctly once or twice. To hear people say it, both of them were "dumbed down" to make them more appealing to people like me and having played them both... yeah, still not liking them, and I actually feel *more* overwhelmed because now I have even *more* Job gauge things to keep track of. (And I'm not the only non-MNK & BLM main that went right back to not wanting to main them.)

So you have some prior fans of the jobs that don't like the changes, you have some of the ever elusive "new" fans of the jobs not caring about the changes, so then... WHY CHANGE ANYTHING?

"We want to make it super simple to pick up so that some of the players that enjoy the actual fun classes will think "well it's not that bad for a quick queue" and dip into the dungeon finder, thus preventing the 20 minute queues we had before."

[Punslinger]

The pugslinger guy name calling is missing my points entirely and being too emotional.

No, I understand your point just fine. I simply disagree with it. (And I also can't help but notice that you went straight to tone-policing instead of bothering to engage with my counterarguments.)

Your point: You think that healers cannot be trusted with any responsibility that would cause a party wipe if the healer dies, because they are a "single point of failure," and this means new/bad healers will get yelled at or something. You think healers will be too stressed to play the role unless other roles can do their job for them. You think that only giving every job a rez will allow healers to face any challenge or difficulty in encounters. You somehow don't think that tanks, who also cause a party wipe if they die during a pull, are also a single point of failure.

You ignore repeated counterarguments pointing out that Trusts are a thing, and healers who are deathly afraid of being vote-kicked from DF parties can always just run MSQ dungeons with Trusts. The solution to the "issue" you think you've found is already in the game, you just choose not to see it.

As for emotion? Well, you try having your preferred role gutted of all complexity and skill expression over the course of half a decade, seeing the devs not only ignore your feedback but also double down on those changes, and dealing with a never-ending horde of non-healers spouting the same tired, canned, easily-disproven lines over and over and over, and see what it does for your disposition.

It feels like a disease: this inability to differentiate optimization with expectation that plagues FFXIV. There has never been an epidemic of casual players being walled by any example of core content (content associated with story) ever in FFXIV's lifespan except for Coils of Bahamut.

I mostly agree, though I think pre-nerf Steps of Faith is a valid counterexample. Whether it was actually overtuned or not, it's been long enough that I don't really remember. But I do remember that a lot of people complained about not being able to progress the MSQ because of the encounter difficulty.

But yeah, expecting basic competence is not the same as demanding that every player min-max their job. It's genuinely astonishing the degree to which the detractors here conflate the two, in a rather massive fallacy of the excluded middle.

Need I also have to mention that we're called elitists and scrubs at the same time by people on your side of the argument. At the very least, coordinate with ome another so you can finalize if we're elitists or noobs.

We are Schoedinger's Healstrikers: simultaneously elitists and scrubs. We exist in a quantum superposition of skill and unskill, with the wave function collapsing into whichever state is most convenient for the detractor's argument.

[Aravell]

I mostly agree, though I think pre-nerf Steps of Faith is a valid counterexample. Whether it was actually overtuned or not, it's been long enough that I don't really remember. But I do remember that a lot of people complained about not being able to progress the MSQ because of the encounter difficulty.

If I remember correctly, the fight wasn't overtuned so much as it was tuned too perfectly.

I remember that failing to land even one dragonkiller would cause the entire fight to fail, and everyone just had to wait forever for the dragon to walk all over to the gate to restart the fight.

I wouldn't say it was a bad fight though, it was just a gimmick fight that was tuned so that you can't make a mistake when using the gimmicks, so I guess in a sense, it was overtuned, because you can't really expect 8 people to coordinate perfectly in a random party.

[Auteur]

Your point: You think that healers cannot be trusted with any responsibility that would cause a party wipe if the healer dies, because they are a "single point of failure," and this means new/bad healers will get yelled at or something. You think healers will be too stressed to play the role unless other roles can do their job for them. You think that only giving every job a rez will allow healers to face any challenge or difficulty in encounters. You somehow don't think that tanks, who also cause a party wipe if they die during a pull, are also a single point of failure.
You ignore repeated counterarguments pointing out that Trusts are a thing, and healers who are deathly afraid of being vote-kicked from DF parties can always just run MSQ dungeons with Trusts. The solution to the "issue" you think you've found is already in the game, you just choose not to see it.

The comment by one of the prostrikers that was deleted in the middle of page 598 was "I don’t think healers need this redundancy. I think it’s fine they might get kicked if their bad gameplay prevents progress." This precisely what SE is trying to guard against. Also most MSQ encounters are designed so the party can recover if the tank dies but the healer is alive through a combination of fastcast rez and using a lot of mitigation CDs. SE is trying to put redundancy to a healer with increased agency to tank and DPS, which is what the pro-strikers are decrying.

Your remaining linchpin rebuttal point of "just do trusts" is ironic because pro-strikers in this thread also decry that Yoshi-P and forum users allegedly respond to pro-strikers' complaints with "just do ultimate." You are responding to my point with the "just do X" logic. In any event, SE is not going to assume every single player is either going to "get good" or just sit in trusts. I believe another person in this thread pointed out that SE seems to also be motivated by trying to police and remove negative player interaction as much as possible. Whether rightly or wrongly, this is the overarching policy decision they made. And the attitude like one of your pro-strikers with a moderated comment of "I don’t think healers need this redundancy. I think it’s fine they might get kicked if their bad gameplay prevents progress" is why SE cares about redundancy and not making healers a single point of failure where there is a possibility of interaction with other players (ex: Duty Finder).

My suggestion of giving an raise item to everyone usable in instances like a pheonix down is a potential alternative that would reduce the likelihood of negative player interaction. SE then may feel comfortable adding more complexity and increasing "stakes" for healers because there is more redundancy built in that inherently will also mitigate negative player reaction. More redundancy means less likelihood of one player/one role risking the entire DF group's progression and then being blamed.

[Malia_Chan]

Could you imagine....

They could cure cancer. Stop homelessness. Feed the hungry.

Put your energies towards something productive instead of complaining about video games.

[Aravell]

Your remaining linchpin rebuttal point of "just do trusts" is ironic because pro-strikers in this thread also decry that Yoshi-P and forum users allegedly respond to pro-strikers' complaints with "just do ultimate." You are responding to my point with the "just do X" logic. In any event, SE is not going to assume every single player is either going to "get good" or just sit in trusts. I believe another person in this thread pointed out that SE seems to also be motivated by trying to police and remove negative player interaction as much as possible. Whether rightly or wrongly, this is the overarching policy decision they made. And the attitude like one of your pro-strikers with a moderated comment of "I don’t think healers need this redundancy. I think it’s fine they might get kicked if their bad gameplay prevents progress" is why SE cares about redundancy and not making healers a single point of failure where there is a possibility of interaction with other players (ex: Duty Finder).

Do you not realise that tanks are also a point of failure in the party? But in their double standard, the solution employed by the dev team there was to buff tanks to godhood when their solution for healers was to gut them like a fish.

Why do tanks get more tools to cover their own failure while healers lose their tools and other people get the tools to cover for the healers failure? That's a very clear double standard and people are allowed to call it out.

[KageTokage]

I had a tank that got up to seven vuln stacks in a dungeon earlier but I was still able to keep them alive with minimal effort, even through the busters.

I feel like the bosses could be a touch rougher on them if that's allowed to be the case.

[Shurrikhan]

Could you imagine....

They could cure cancer. Stop homelessness. Feed the hungry.

Put your energies towards something productive instead of complaining about video games.

How productive does that make blanket complaints about other's complaints (no matter how reasonable), then?

Discourse with, to your mind, little value is one thing. Going out of one's way to shut that discourse down, though, is inherently all the less valueable, no? (Outside of schadenfreude / joys of trolling, of course.)

[Aword3213]

Could you imagine....

They could cure cancer. Stop homelessness. Feed the hungry.

Put your energies towards something productive instead of complaining about video games.

How about you be the paragon of your examples and stop with virtue signaling.