Please fix healers problem without touching other roles

[Ianmaru]

You are asking me “if healers were stronger healers would you still say tanks are stronger healers”

Of course healers will be stronger if you triple healing output i just don’t understand why you’d rather bend the entire rest of the game including healer design, encounters and even DPS healing over just NERFING tank healing

Nerfs don’t hurt that much, I took a nerf in 6.1

yes that's always been the whole point. it's about making healer stronger so that tank no longer be the better healer. do you even read my thread top?
I too took a nerf a lot of times but I don't wish anyone else takes a nerf. and I'm not even a WAR & PLD main, so I'm not fighting for my own cause.
If anything your remark about how you got a nerf gives it the "I got nerfed so y'all gotta get one too, feel my pain" impression.

[Saraide]

So are we just trying to avoid the term "nerf" because it's an evil word.

[EusisLandale]

Your "solution" to the problem is an arms race, which ultimately solves no problems. Tanks were generally speaking put into their current position over their "anxiety" that their survival was in someone else's hands and that someone else could do something that they could not. You buff the healers to heal ~75% a shot, then you raise the damage to justify it, then the tanks' "anxiety" comes back and they beg and whine for more and the cycle repeats once more.

[Supersnow845]

yes that's always been the whole point. it's about making healer stronger so that tank no longer be the better healer. do you even read my thread top?
I too took a nerf a lot of times but I don't wish anyone else takes a nerf. and I'm not even a WAR & PLD main, so I'm not fighting for my own cause.
If anything your remark about how you got a nerf gives it the "I got nerfed so y'all gotta get one too, feel my pain" impression.

Because it’s completely ludicrous to change every other class to avoid changing the tanks when it can lead to 10 million other balance problems

Let’s say they overcorrect and suddenly tank healing is near useless again because afflatus solace is now healing for 4000 potency and the mobs are still chunking the tank and putting them in real danger. Tank healing is now next to useless. What do they do then? Buff tank healing again and start the cycle anew? Nerf the healer healing? Nerf the mobs?

What if it goes the other way and they don’t adequately buff the damage enough so the situation doesn’t change. What if they buff the mob damage too much and suddenly neither the healer nor the tank can keep people up, what if they don’t increase the mob damage enough and suddenly every healer heal is a benediction and the mobs are still ticking the tank. What if they mess up with the DPS healing level and suddenly the DPS heals are either completely useless button bloat or otherwise adequate replacement for the healer

You have to understand that your suggestion to “not nerf tanks buff everyone else” has so many more fail points compared to the alternative we are so much more likely to end up with a different messed up meta than what we have now and it may even be worse if they mess the balance up

And let’s say they hit the balance perfectly. Isn’t the whole reason the tanks want self sustain is because they don’t like relying on the healer? Aren’t you basically consigning them to going back to being reliant on the healer because with these new potencies only the healer is keeping people alive

[Zeastria]

Every issue with [Healer] can all be indirectly and directly traced back to this:
The damage output in this game is way to LOW to sustain
the insane heals and self-sustaine that exist in this game.

How to solve this:

Damage needs to happen way more frequent during BOSS fight(s).

We need Random and Unavoidable dmg in the game!

This will make it so that even experienced groups,
will take dmg, a big issue with ffxiv is that most dmg is avoidable-->becomes invalid!

Things like:
- (30-40s) AOE DoTs on all players ( this will force healer to use their AoE healing more often ).
- Direct DMG that hits a random player(s). ( forces more spot healing).
- Have % based DMG ( high ilvl/gear should not make the dmg invalid (in normal content)).
- Have bosses actually do damage to tanks outside just TBs - make auto hits hit harder


Self-healing from Tanks/DPS and OffGlobal Heals dosn't have to be nerfed/removed:
Because with higher dmg output, their "strength" will be grealty reduced,They are strong now because the dmg output is low!.

[AnotherPerson]

yes that's always been the whole point. it's about making healer stronger so that tank no longer be the better healer. do you even read my thread top?
I too took a nerf a lot of times but I don't wish anyone else takes a nerf. and I'm not even a WAR & PLD main, so I'm not fighting for my own cause.
If anything your remark about how you got a nerf gives it the "I got nerfed so y'all gotta get one too, feel my pain" impression.

I can understand where you're coming from, but you should be aware that SE doesn't want to increase difficulty that drastically, and you're also effectively asking for content to be significantly more difficult as both healer and tank have to play properly to handle outgoing damage as one cannot cover the vast amount of healing that a WAR can heal with bloodwhetting without nerfs, which then will indirectly have to raise PLD/GNB/DRK to be able to compete with that kind of healing.

In the event tanks are nerfed to not overtake a healer in such a drastic way, a bad healer but a good tank can make the bad healer's job much easier through mitigation, but a bad healer will probably be unable to DPS or heal very well. Likewise, a good healer can cover a bad tank. This is the current ARR/HW/SB and to some extent ShB design.

In the event tanks are adjusted without nerfs, healers are buffed to be far superior, and outgoing damage is increased for both a healer and a tank to feel engagement, having either a bad tank or a bad healer is tantamount to a wipe.
In the event tanks are adjusted without nerfs, healers are buffed to be far superior, but outgoing damage is increased so having either a bad healer or bad tank can clear it, we're back to the current standpoint where tank becomes a replacement for the healer role because they have enough healing - but it creates problems in other gameplay content (Current Endwalker).

You'd heavily create imbalances in solo to party content that was originally viable to all roles (like Deep Dungeon) as tank will be healing far too much or else DPS without buffed healing will directly die to adjusted mob damage. Not to mention, adjusting mob damage in every place will probably take more development resources than it is worth. Mobs in Bozja/Eureka will also be unbalanced in design. Too many failure points to redesign and consider.

There's no way to balance that realistically without alienating the playerbase.

[Calysto]

I don't think it is the answer, as focusing on OGCD invalidate core identity of the healers even more (No regen/shield on OGCD).

With the current design, the opposite would probably be better : GCD heals/shields should be the main focus and OGCD should be nerfed while making them more available (ex:doubling gauges/halving recasts/more charges and thing like that).
Weaving OGCD more often for spot healing while still needing your big GCD heals for chained attacks or mistakes.
If power creep and/or you/your team getting better allow you to greed more GCD even better, as long as it's a fine line while content is not that old.

It also doesn't mean all OGCD should be nerfed, You should still have at least one or two (ST/AoE) powerful for big "oh s**t" moments ; just on long CD (2-3mn)

Anyway, while it would help break the monotony with more weaving, with the current fight design we're almost immediately in the "greed" phase with not much else to do.

[KisaiTenshi]

Your "solution" to the problem is an arms race, which ultimately solves no problems. Tanks were generally speaking put into their current position over their "anxiety" that their survival was in someone else's hands and that someone else could do something that they could not. You buff the healers to heal ~75% a shot, then you raise the damage to justify it, then the tanks' "anxiety" comes back and they beg and whine for more and the cycle repeats once more.

Tanks don't want to worry about the healer abandoning them for DPS
Healers thus keep being told to DPS

Does anyone not see the problem here? If healers weren't spending time DPS'ing they would have time to heal the tank. And it the Tank wasn't spending time healing themselves, they would have more time to DPS themselves. If the tank and the healer are fighting for the 12.5% of the DPS output, it should be the tank actually doing that damage.

Unfortunately just continuously spamming heal because you're expected to, even when nobody is damaged is just poor job design. It worked better in ARR where "overheal" would just rip the enmity away entirely from the tank if they weren't in Tank stance, or push it to yellow if they were.

There is no way to justify a fight design that just constantly bleeds you 10% a tick because then the healer is left with no choice but to use only the GCD Medica or Cure III for every cast. If you ever need to cast rez without swift cast 8 seconds are going to go by, and everyone will die. If Raise was instead a oGCD with a 10 second recast time, it could be cast immediately without swiftcast, but then wouldn't be "ready" again for 10 seconds, thus allowing for a fight to be designed for a constant bleed.

If a fight is designed well:
The Tank should only be holding enmity and any "loss of tank stance" should lose the enmity to whoever is doing more damage to it, or to the healer if they've overhealed a target. The tank should never have the opportunity to self-heal.
The Healer should have zero opportunity to cast DPS (Eg Stone) only DoT's. They should be casting Heals, HoT's or DoT's 90% of the time. If they have time to cast an AOE then the tank is too strong. That is how it worked in ARR. That is why so many people were "pure healer" types in ARR, because it was too expensive to switch to the Cleric stance, especially when you get that one tank that would pull everything to the boss room.
The DPS should never have the opportunity to self-heal.

Outside of a "the boss has stopped attacking, quick kill the nails" type of pause in the damage output from the boss, the healer and tank should not be "just DPS'ing"

You can fix "self heals" being over used by increasing the oGCD time or reducing the potency. Unfortunately the only way to pull that off is by making the self heal cast unique for every job just to adjust the oGCD time to match, and then making sure the oGCD time is quadrupled or in dungeons.

When a fight is not designed well:
Tanks die too quickly due to too much incoming damage that overwhelms the healer, and no amount of mitigation can save a fight
Healers are constantly pressing the GCD heals (Medica/Medica2) because the oGCD's were used/wasted on a previous phase, until they run out of MP
DPS constantly take dirt naps.

or
When a fight is under-designed (or not ilevel synced low enough):
A tank can solo the fight/remainder of the fight without the healer or DPS
A healer can use nothing but oGCD heals
DPS can self-heal faster than the damage output

Sure, a fight "should be easier" if you've geared and leveled up, but this isn't "OTHER RPG NAME HERE(TM)", but as we often see, older ARR content went from "actually requiring minimum DPS/HPS from wearing appropriate gear" to "killing things so fast that half the mechanics aren't even seen." This forum doesn't exist in a 2 year bubble, you can literately go back to posts made during each patch version and see people complain about things being too hard for the gear that was available.

The game has not felt like that in a long time, where you actually had to buy gear to do the content, rather it feels like the game just enforces a minimum ilevel that you can get by just doing the previous dungeon several times to get a full set that you then immediately throw away and repeat. It doesn't feel hard when you enter with minimum ilevel except when everyone is minimum ilevel.

Which is why asking for "more bleed mechanics" as a solution here is just asking for content to be harder when it's only "not hard enough" through gear creep. How many players are playing the content with a full pentameld set versus minimum ilevel tomes gear? The difference between the two is like the difference between being able to survive 1 and 2 vulnerability stacks.

Perhaps that could be part of the solution for the tank. Missing mitigation's adds vulnerability stacks to the tank or the party. Let the healer able to cleanse vulnerability stacks, or at least pop the most recent vulnerability stack off (eg taking 3 down to 2, 2 down to 1, but not to zero.)

[aiqa]

Self-healing from Tanks/DPS and OffGlobal Heals dosn't have to be nerfed/removed:
Because with higher dmg output, their "strength" will be grealty reduced,They are strong now because the dmg output is low!.

So how do you imagine a DRK or GNB +healer will work against multiple enemies, if their damage is increased enough to challenge a WAR even without a healer?

And do you agree heals from healers should never be overshadowed? If so, how do you imagine to balance that against multiple enemies? The only way to do that I see if both give healers a huge buff to ogcd healing and an obscene increase to incoming damage. And then you start running into problems that both damage and healing are so high players will have very little time to respond, which increases overall difficulty of the game hugely. They tried to avoid that with the numbers nerf a few years ago, all damage and healing was nerfed while health wasn't.

So in the end it's either nerf tanks (WAR/PLD) selfheals. Or make a LOT of other changes that have other consequences that need to be worked out, only to end up in a similar situation as just lowering some numbers on selfheals.

[Payadopa]

yes that's always been the whole point. it's about making healer stronger so that tank no longer be the better healer. do you even read my thread top?
I too took a nerf a lot of times but I don't wish anyone else takes a nerf. and I'm not even a WAR & PLD main, so I'm not fighting for my own cause.
If anything your remark about how you got a nerf gives it the "I got nerfed so y'all gotta get one too, feel my pain" impression.

If everyone were to get buffed but one then that's a nerf. Might as well nerf the one job outright. Let's call a spade a spade. It's such an egotistical thing. Everyone should have fun, regardless of what they play. That's the whole reason we have balancing strangle job creativity.

Right now we have unbalanced tanks *and* homogenised healers. Worst of both worlds, if you ask me.