Please fix healers problem without touching other roles

[Ianmaru]

DISCLAIMER

if you think tank heals & DPS raise need to be nerfed then by all means, I won't disagree, but that's not the point of this thread. Instead I'm talking about the ways we can fix the main issue without nerfing others. It's meant to be a thread about healer & healing in a vacuum, so feel free to reply if you have response and/or disagreement about my ideas of how incoming damage and healing can be improved, but please refrain from bringing up how the nonhealers need to be like. that's not the point of the thread. Sorry if the title I put gives the wrong impression, sadly I can't edit the title.

I play every single jobs decently on both casual & hardcore contents, and I agree with a lot of things mentioned in the #FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE protest.

My concern is that SE would go "No more tank heals, no more DPS raise" way, which is the lazy & bad way to fix it. My suggestions:

1. Make any healing tasks the nonhealer can do, the healers can do better
Let's start from raising. Every healers have one raise spell that never gets upgraded since lvl 12 with long 8s cast time. We're at lvl 100 now, its about time to get healers raises upgrades. The complaints on the DPS forum about SMN & RDM having raises wouldn't even arise if healers could raise better than them.
Solution: Make healers raise cast time 1GCD (2.5s) long + 50% HP heal. There's no good reason to keep them 8s long.

Now parties might still choose RDM & SMN over BLM & PCT because they want to have a backup raise whenever both healers are down.
Solution: Make the healers their own backup raise when they die by giving them Reraise spell, so the need of having RDM & SMN in a party will be minimized. Make it a costly ~60s buff with 8s cast time.
Also make the single target GCD heal heals for ~75% HP with only 1.5s cast time, so the efficiency would be GCD heal>raise>reraise.

For healing, healers can already heal better than WAR. The problem is, having a more powerful healing kit than other roles means nothing when the incoming damage is either not big/frequent enough, or is too deadly that our healing kit is useless anyway, like those one-mistake-wipe & body count mechs.

2. Improve incoming attacks toward party members
Healers are supposed to be busy healing, and yet now healers have nothing much to do but press that one DPS button all the time and heal occasionally, no wonder healers ask for more DPS buttons instead.
Solution: make raidwides come more often, like every 15s, with more single target damage to non tanks party members.

3. Fix healers' healing kit
(Note: whenever I say 'oGCD' read it as 'lily GCD' for WHM)
Healers should be healing, but the majority believes that a GCD spent healing instead of DPSing is bad, hence forcing the healers to use GCD heal more often might be problematic.
Solution: Give healers more oGCD heal resources so they can deal with the more frequent damage with their oGCDs instead of GCD heals; GCD heals are strictly for emergency.

(E.g. double up the oGCD heals like this:
WHM: Lily timer 10s
AST: E. Star & C.U. CD 30s
SCH: AF CD 30s, Indom & S. Soil CD 15s
SGE: Gauge timer 10s, Ixo & Kera CD 15s
This alone already double up the busyness in healing)

Remove Cure/Benefic/Physick. Merge Cure2, Benefic2, Medica, Helios with their regen counterparts.
This way healers GCD kits wouldn't be bloated by barely used spells. Only 4 DPS-loss emergency GCDs: single target heal, raidwide heal, raise & reraise.
Add 2 DPS GCD buttons, so healer gameplay will be doing simple GCD rotation while (a lot more) frequently weaving healing oGCDs.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Tank heals, and more specifically wars sustain, is too much and should be nerfed even if there wasn't a healer issue.

So while yes healers need to be fixed, I think tanks need to lose some of their self sustain. More mit yes, but not sustain.

And if you want to leave war as the berserking healing tank, it's mitigation needs to be nerfed, like it was back in 2.0 before the first rework.

It can't have both.

[Ianmaru]

And if you want to leave war as the berserking healing tank, it's mitigation needs to be nerfed, like it was back in 2.0 before the first rework.

It can't have both.

first, do you play and have complete understanding of tanks? if yes then you would know that tanks have 2 subroles: 'sustain tank' & 'offensive tank'. WAR & PLD are sustain, while DRK & GNB are offensive.
now to answer to the part I quoted: WAR doesn't have both. between PLD & WAR, WAR mitigation is lower (even lower than GNB too). both of them have heals, but WAR is stronger on the heal part, while PLD is stronger on the mitigation part. GNB & DRK on the otherhand, they're not sustain tank, hence they get more DPS oGCDs & output in place of the heals that they don't have.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

first, do you play and have complete understanding of tanks? if yes then you would know that tanks have 2 subroles: 'sustain tank' & 'offensive tank'. WAR & PLD are sustain, while DRK & GNB are offensive.
now to answer to the part I quoted: WAR doesn't have both. between PLD & WAR, WAR mitigation is lower (even lower than GNB too). both of them have heals, but WAR is stronger on the heal part, while PLD is stronger on the mitigation part. GNB & DRK on the otherhand, they're not sustain tank, hence they get more DPS oGCDs & output in place of the heals that they don't have.

Do I play tanks? Yes. I was a pld main until stormblood, and since I've played drk, though not primarily, but I did clear p4s with it while current.

And didn't the war god Xeno throw a fit because war wasn't top dps during one of the ultimates? It has the best or 2nd best invuln, depending on the fight.

[Ianmaru]

Do I play tanks? Yes. I was a pld main until stormblood, and since I've played drk, though not primarily, but I did clear p4s with it while current.

And didn't the war god Xeno throw a fit because war wasn't top dps during one of the ultimates? It has the best or 2nd best invuln, depending on the fight.

my question is more on whether you have understanding of tanks or not, because if you do then as I said you would know that WAR doesn't have both healing & mitigation. WAR has healing, but less mitigation and less DPS output and arguably the worse invuln among all tanks. So my point is, if you're asking for WAR to have less mitigations, it has already been that way

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

my question is more on whether you have understanding of tanks or not, because if you do then as I said you would know that WAR doesn't have both healing & mitigation. WAR has healing, but less mitigation and less DPS output and arguably the worse invuln among all tanks. So my point is, if you're asking for WAR to have less mitigations, it has already been that way

War does not have the worst invuln. Not by far.

And war has plenty of mit. It does not have significantly less mit for the significantly more healing output it has.

You are probably looking at number of skills, not the actual reduction.


Depending on the timeline, war is 2nd in dps, or within half a percent.

There is no real difference in dps.


Really curious if you know anything about tanks the way you are talking.

[ForteNightshade]

Do I play tanks? Yes. I was a pld main until stormblood, and since I've played drk, though not primarily, but I did clear p4s with it while current.

And didn't the war god Xeno throw a fit because war wasn't top dps during one of the ultimates? It has the best or 2nd best invuln, depending on the fight.

This keeps getting tossed around when it's disingenuous. He didn't complain Warrior wasn't the top DPS. He "threw a fit" because Warrior's damage (and Paladin's) was so much lower than Dark Knight, the latter allowed for two damage downs on DPS players and a death, albeit near the end. For reference sake, in the initial weeks of P8S, Dark Knight was pulling upwards of 10-11% above Warrior and Paladin while having a better mitigation suite and the fight itself completely invalidating Holmgang. Bluntly stated, Dark Knight wasn't just slightly better, it thoroughly stomped WAR/PLD into the ground to the point bringing them over it was borderline griefing your team. Even after the buff, the discrepancy remained which saw Dark Knight have more clears of TOP than all three other tanks combined.

Dark Knight wasn't just good throughout most of Endwalker (Living Dead, notwithstanding). It was oppressively good. Hence the near constant buffs they've been doing to Warrior and Paladin. Funny enough, in spite of all the out crying, Dark Knight remains the higher DPS tank. In fact, it's only really Paladin that still falls behind at the Savage level. Shake It Off is slightly overtuned but it's only really dungeons where Warrior's sustain is silly. In Savage, it balances out with Dark Knight having better mitigation.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

This keeps getting tossed around when it's disingenuous. He didn't complain Warrior wasn't the top DPS. He "threw a fit" because Warrior's damage (and Paladin's) was so much lower than Dark Knight, the latter allowed for two damage downs on DPS players and a death, albeit near the end. For reference sake, in the initial weeks of P8S, Dark Knight was pulling upwards of 10-11% above Warrior and Paladin while having a better mitigation suite and the fight itself completely invalidating Holmgang. Bluntly stated, Dark Knight wasn't just slightly better, it thoroughly stomped WAR/PLD into the ground to the point bringing them over it was borderline griefing your team. Even after the buff, the discrepancy remained which saw Dark Knight have more clears of TOP than all three other tanks combined.

Dark Knight wasn't just good throughout most of Endwalker (Living Dead, notwithstanding). It was oppressively good. Hence the near constant buffs they've been doing to Warrior and Paladin. Funny enough, in spite of all the out crying, Dark Knight remains the higher DPS tank. In fact, it's only really Paladin that still falls behind at the Savage level. Shake It Off is slightly overtuned but it's only really dungeons where Warrior's sustain is silly. In Savage, it balances out with Dark Knight having better mitigation.

That may be, but from that and one of his blow ups in 3.x, the impression Xeno himself gives off is that anything detrimental to war being the perfect job is that he will throw a tantrum. Sorry, but that's just the result from the way he's acted over the years.

[Neoyoshi]

Tank heals, and more specifically wars sustain, is too much and should be nerfed even if there wasn't a healer issue.

So while yes healers need to be fixed, I think tanks need to lose some of their self sustain. More mit yes, but not sustain.

And if you want to leave war as the berserking healing tank, it's mitigation needs to be nerfed, like it was back in 2.0 before the first rework.

It can't have both.

I wish someone could turn back the clock a bit and remind us all what Warrior was like before this 'overpowered and self-sustain' era of the Warrior, because i firmly remember a time when folk used to joke about how much they hated warrior because it was 'trash' and Paladin at the time was the king of tanks.

Anyone? I think that should be talked about because there was a reason why the dev team did what they did to the warrior job, and i feel like old warrior mains probably remember this.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

I wish someone could turn back the clock a bit and remind us all what Warrior was like before this 'overpowered and self-sustain' era of the Warrior, because i firmly remember a time when folk used to joke about how much they hated warrior because it was 'trash' and Paladin at the time was the king of tanks.

Anyone? I think that should be talked about because there was a reason why the dev team did what they did to the warrior job, and i feel like old warrior mains probably remember this.

Can go look at the patch notes for 2.1, and look at "brutal swing" - marauder lol, and warrior.



Vengeance used to not have damage reduction at all. Brutal swing was just a 300% heal based on damage done (20% Damage reduction got added to brutal swing in 2.1, and 30% to vengeance).


So if anything, this patch is where tank homogenization started. Because WAR was the "self heal" tank, and they changed it to align with PLD, because raw mit was just better.