Please fix healers problem without touching other roles

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Tank heals, and more specifically wars sustain, is too much and should be nerfed even if there wasn't a healer issue.

So while yes healers need to be fixed, I think tanks need to lose some of their self sustain. More mit yes, but not sustain.

And if you want to leave war as the berserking healing tank, it's mitigation needs to be nerfed, like it was back in 2.0 before the first rework.

It can't have both.

[Ianmaru]

And if you want to leave war as the berserking healing tank, it's mitigation needs to be nerfed, like it was back in 2.0 before the first rework.

It can't have both.

first, do you play and have complete understanding of tanks? if yes then you would know that tanks have 2 subroles: 'sustain tank' & 'offensive tank'. WAR & PLD are sustain, while DRK & GNB are offensive.
now to answer to the part I quoted: WAR doesn't have both. between PLD & WAR, WAR mitigation is lower (even lower than GNB too). both of them have heals, but WAR is stronger on the heal part, while PLD is stronger on the mitigation part. GNB & DRK on the otherhand, they're not sustain tank, hence they get more DPS oGCDs & output in place of the heals that they don't have.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

first, do you play and have complete understanding of tanks? if yes then you would know that tanks have 2 subroles: 'sustain tank' & 'offensive tank'. WAR & PLD are sustain, while DRK & GNB are offensive.
now to answer to the part I quoted: WAR doesn't have both. between PLD & WAR, WAR mitigation is lower (even lower than GNB too). both of them have heals, but WAR is stronger on the heal part, while PLD is stronger on the mitigation part. GNB & DRK on the otherhand, they're not sustain tank, hence they get more DPS oGCDs & output in place of the heals that they don't have.

Do I play tanks? Yes. I was a pld main until stormblood, and since I've played drk, though not primarily, but I did clear p4s with it while current.

And didn't the war god Xeno throw a fit because war wasn't top dps during one of the ultimates? It has the best or 2nd best invuln, depending on the fight.

[Ianmaru]

Do I play tanks? Yes. I was a pld main until stormblood, and since I've played drk, though not primarily, but I did clear p4s with it while current.

And didn't the war god Xeno throw a fit because war wasn't top dps during one of the ultimates? It has the best or 2nd best invuln, depending on the fight.

my question is more on whether you have understanding of tanks or not, because if you do then as I said you would know that WAR doesn't have both healing & mitigation. WAR has healing, but less mitigation and less DPS output and arguably the worse invuln among all tanks. So my point is, if you're asking for WAR to have less mitigations, it has already been that way

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

my question is more on whether you have understanding of tanks or not, because if you do then as I said you would know that WAR doesn't have both healing & mitigation. WAR has healing, but less mitigation and less DPS output and arguably the worse invuln among all tanks. So my point is, if you're asking for WAR to have less mitigations, it has already been that way

War does not have the worst invuln. Not by far.

And war has plenty of mit. It does not have significantly less mit for the significantly more healing output it has.

You are probably looking at number of skills, not the actual reduction.


Depending on the timeline, war is 2nd in dps, or within half a percent.

There is no real difference in dps.


Really curious if you know anything about tanks the way you are talking.

[Ianmaru]

War does not have the worst invuln. Not by far.

And war has plenty of mit. It does not have significantly less mit for the significantly more healing output it has.

You are probably looking at number of skills, not the actual reduction.


Depending on the timeline, war is 2nd in dps, or within half a percent.

There is no real difference in dps.


Really curious if you know anything about tanks the way you are talking.

let's break it down then.
invuln:
PLD (7m): true invuln with no cost
GNB (6m): true invuln with the remaining HP as the cost
DRK (5m): not true invuln, you'll keep getting damage when using invuln, but your GCD during invuln heals yourself a lot
WAR (4m): not true invuln, you'll keep getting damage when using invuln.

Tell me how it's not one of the worse invuln. if you want to survive after invuln as WAR you need to use at least one or two other of your healing oGCD. same as GNB, but at least as GNB if you get healed during your invuln, your HP won't go down. WAR on the other hand, any heals during the invuln duration can be wasted. the fact it has the shortest CD proves that the game agree that it's the weakest, thus they make the CD shorter to make up for it and make it's value on par with everyone else's invuln.

on-demand mitigation:
PLD: Holy Sheltron (50 gauge fills in ~25s): 15% (8s) + 15% (4s) + 250p 4 ticks regen. Can target party member.
GNB: Heart of Corundum (25s): 15% (8s) + 15% (4s) + 900p heal. Can target party member.
DRK: Oblation (60s) + The Blackest Night (15s): 10% mit (10s) + 25% shield. Can target party member.
WAR: Bloodwhetting (25s): 10% (8s) + 10% (4s) + 400p shield + heal. Use Nascent Flash instead for party member.

Just by the number itself you can see that WAR at the bottom along with DRK.

'Bonus mitigation':
PLD: Bulwark
GNB: Camouflage
DRK: Dark Mind
WAR: Thrill of Battle

All of them has different effects, can't really compare but WAR's is definitely not stronger.

120s mitigations:
every tank has 30% mit for 15s. no difference.

healing:
PLD: Clemency (1000p heal, can spam but cost GCD & MP)
GNB: Aurora (200p 6ticks regen, 60s CD, 2 stack)
DRK: None. But you can technically use Abyssal Drain if youre desperate. (200p, 60s CD)
WAR: Equilibrium (1200p heal + 200p 5ticks regen, 60s CD)

WAR is better than GNB & DRK here because again GNB & DRK are not sustain tanks. compared to PLD though, I won't say equilibrium stronger than clemency.

raidwide mitigation:
PLD: Divine Veil (10% shield + heal 400p) & Passage of Arms (15% all mit ~5s)
GNB: Heart of Light (10% magic mit 15s)
DRK: Dark Missionary (10% magic mit 15s)
WAR: Shake it off (15% shield + heal 300p + regen)

GNB & DRK are the weakest because they're not sustain tank. PLD's raidwide mit is stronger on the mits, while WAR's raidwide mit is stronger on the shield & regen

that's all. WAR has already been having less mits compared to PLD and sometimes GNB.

And no you can't conclude a job is higher DPS than the other 'depending on the timeline'. that's not how it works :')

and yes I know a lot about tanks, and I can confidently say I know a lot more than you

Well anyway I hope you learned something new now, you're welcome.

[aiqa]

WAR doesn't have more mits and even lesser compared to PLD and sometimes GNB

The claim wasn't that WAR has more mitigation, so arguing against that point is meaningless. The claim was that WAR should have less mitigation like in 2.0 if it is to keep its selfheals, and that currently it doesn't have significantly less mitigation while it does have significantly more heals.

Also you forgot to include cooldown differences. Or are those not important?

[ForteNightshade]

Do I play tanks? Yes. I was a pld main until stormblood, and since I've played drk, though not primarily, but I did clear p4s with it while current.

And didn't the war god Xeno throw a fit because war wasn't top dps during one of the ultimates? It has the best or 2nd best invuln, depending on the fight.

This keeps getting tossed around when it's disingenuous. He didn't complain Warrior wasn't the top DPS. He "threw a fit" because Warrior's damage (and Paladin's) was so much lower than Dark Knight, the latter allowed for two damage downs on DPS players and a death, albeit near the end. For reference sake, in the initial weeks of P8S, Dark Knight was pulling upwards of 10-11% above Warrior and Paladin while having a better mitigation suite and the fight itself completely invalidating Holmgang. Bluntly stated, Dark Knight wasn't just slightly better, it thoroughly stomped WAR/PLD into the ground to the point bringing them over it was borderline griefing your team. Even after the buff, the discrepancy remained which saw Dark Knight have more clears of TOP than all three other tanks combined.

Dark Knight wasn't just good throughout most of Endwalker (Living Dead, notwithstanding). It was oppressively good. Hence the near constant buffs they've been doing to Warrior and Paladin. Funny enough, in spite of all the out crying, Dark Knight remains the higher DPS tank. In fact, it's only really Paladin that still falls behind at the Savage level. Shake It Off is slightly overtuned but it's only really dungeons where Warrior's sustain is silly. In Savage, it balances out with Dark Knight having better mitigation.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

This keeps getting tossed around when it's disingenuous. He didn't complain Warrior wasn't the top DPS. He "threw a fit" because Warrior's damage (and Paladin's) was so much lower than Dark Knight, the latter allowed for two damage downs on DPS players and a death, albeit near the end. For reference sake, in the initial weeks of P8S, Dark Knight was pulling upwards of 10-11% above Warrior and Paladin while having a better mitigation suite and the fight itself completely invalidating Holmgang. Bluntly stated, Dark Knight wasn't just slightly better, it thoroughly stomped WAR/PLD into the ground to the point bringing them over it was borderline griefing your team. Even after the buff, the discrepancy remained which saw Dark Knight have more clears of TOP than all three other tanks combined.

Dark Knight wasn't just good throughout most of Endwalker (Living Dead, notwithstanding). It was oppressively good. Hence the near constant buffs they've been doing to Warrior and Paladin. Funny enough, in spite of all the out crying, Dark Knight remains the higher DPS tank. In fact, it's only really Paladin that still falls behind at the Savage level. Shake It Off is slightly overtuned but it's only really dungeons where Warrior's sustain is silly. In Savage, it balances out with Dark Knight having better mitigation.

That may be, but from that and one of his blow ups in 3.x, the impression Xeno himself gives off is that anything detrimental to war being the perfect job is that he will throw a tantrum. Sorry, but that's just the result from the way he's acted over the years.

[Neoyoshi]

Tank heals, and more specifically wars sustain, is too much and should be nerfed even if there wasn't a healer issue.

So while yes healers need to be fixed, I think tanks need to lose some of their self sustain. More mit yes, but not sustain.

And if you want to leave war as the berserking healing tank, it's mitigation needs to be nerfed, like it was back in 2.0 before the first rework.

It can't have both.

I wish someone could turn back the clock a bit and remind us all what Warrior was like before this 'overpowered and self-sustain' era of the Warrior, because i firmly remember a time when folk used to joke about how much they hated warrior because it was 'trash' and Paladin at the time was the king of tanks.

Anyone? I think that should be talked about because there was a reason why the dev team did what they did to the warrior job, and i feel like old warrior mains probably remember this.