Some DRK changes seem annoyingly simple yet are ignored....

[Ramiee]

Idk why people think healers just need to heal....

Yes, WAR has too much healing, in dungeons, but providing some extra healing in other content doesn't "kill healers," if that's where the disgruntled rhetoric has moved then it's moved offbase for no reason other then continued outrage for the sake of outrage.

And no, if TBN lost it's MP it would not automatically become a proc instead, that's a guess and not at all what I'm directly suggesting, but regardless it's still just a shield that grants a single oGCD and that's what I'm saying it should remain, even if that is rather bland.

It is by far the least interesting of tank's short CD defensives.

I am not on team healers need to heal im on team healers need to heal and need to dps. Right now all they have is a 1 button damage spam and maybe 2 oGCDS an entire dungeon, with blm that moves up to like 5 oGCDs. Even if Healers had a robust DPS system I would still have this opinion because right now healers DO NOT HEAL, if you have anyone slightly competent in every single difficulty level of this game you will NEVER need to GCD heal. TOP was cleared when it was new with NO healers, tanks being able to heal themselves and others have made healers redundant.

TBN is interesting because it has a sacrifice and a reward you are rewarded for using it well while a WAR just has to press a single AOE to fully heal. You're painfully naive if you think people won't use TBN on CD if it lost its MP cost and was given a short CD. Bard repelling shot back in ARR had 55 potency damage and because of that it was never used as a dodge, it was used as an oGCD attack as well as every single stun in the entire game which also had damage potency. If you have even the slightest chance for free damage from using TBN on cooldown people will do it because damage is king in MMOs. Why do you think gapclosers are incorperated into DPS rotations?
The only thing I would pssiobly agree on is maybe giving the oGCD after the shield break maybe a lifesteal but thats it.

[VicariousXIV]

I am not on team healers .... others have mad healers redundant.

TBN is interesting because .... maybe giving the oGCD after the shield break maybe a lifesteal but thats it.

They "do not heal" in dungeons, 99% of the time in endgame content they are still completely necessary and it's impossible without them, that 1% at the top end who do something extreme like clearing TOP with no healers isn't the norm and should not be a basis to form an opinion on for the rest of the game.

So yes, as mentioned tank healing needs to be reduced, mainly WAR, and I do also think healers need more offensive abilities in general and then relying on oGCD heals shouldn't be demonized either, a proper mix of offense and healing should be the goal.

I also just don't think TBN is a "sacrifice and reward," it's a "break even or get punished" ability. And you're painfully naive if you think people using it for damage is inherently a negative thing. You do make a fair point that it being spammed might become an issue in gameplay, which should be a point of discussion instead of a means to levy insults, but honestly if a DRK player uses it off CD and then misses a tank buster then they fucked up, and if they're using it for more oGCD usage outside of that phase then why would that be a bad thing? Block as much damage as possible and get rewarded with a free oGCD. Everyone is always complaining about DRK being so offensively focused but still losing in damage to the WAR and GNB, so why would providing it some extra damage for proper use and timing (the thing everyone has been saying they like about TBN) be a bad thing at all? Fuck it, give it two charges like Oblation and remove Oblation, so that it CAN be used more often and provide more consistent return while retaining all of the flexibility, that'll even allow it to actually be the "shield tank," food for thought at least, at least better then throwing insults cause of ideas, k? lol

If that just won't work then the offensive uses of MP have to be reworked, or else none of it will ever change or see any additions or improvements, period.

[VictorSpoils]

TBN is the most fun button DRK has with a small amount of strategy involved in using it in casual play. Being able to TBN someone who you expect to stand in orange, or to improve someone else's uptime, is truly delightful.

And then half the time you're wishing the 7-second duration and/or 12-second cooldown were one second longer/faster.

[MagiusNecros]

Salted Earth pulling enemies to you in PvE could actually be useful, though it would have a billion exceptions when a boss is supposed to be in a particular spot.

Bosses would be immune to the draw-in. Blue Mage's Hydro Pull works to great effect in all dungeons to keep enemies grouped up and would work great for the regular Tanks if they ever got a skill like that. Also doubles as a interrupt on enemies that cast spells if they get moved.

[Ramiee]

They "do not heal" in dungeons, 99% of the time in endgame content they are still completely necessary and it's impossible without them, that 1% at the top end who do something extreme like clearing TOP with no healers isn't the norm and should not be a basis to form an opinion on for the rest of the game.

The fact its possible shows theres an inbalance even if its 1% in sync'd content a healer isnt needed thats an objective balance problem the same way it would be a problem if a tank wasn't necessary. TBN not directly healing you is one of the few tank CDs that doesn't contribute to this problem.

I also just don't think TBN is a "sacrifice and reward," it's a "break even or get punished" ability. And you're painfully naive if you think people using it for damage is inherently a negative thing.

It is, its why Stuns and most movement tools no longer do potency the devs agreed with me. Utility =/ Damage, damage will always matter more to people.

but honestly if a DRK player uses it off CD and then misses a tank buster then they fucked up, and if they're using it for more oGCD usage outside of that phase then why would that be a bad thing?

Because TBN is a good defensive tool thats why WAR and GNB both have barriers on their short GCDs and why theres an entire healing subrole based around barriers.

Everyone is always complaining about DRK being so offensively focused but still losing in damage to the WAR and GNB, so why would providing it some extra damage for proper use and timing (the thing everyone has been saying they like about TBN) be a bad thing at all?

I want DRK to do more damage than WAR and GNB and I think TBN is good tool for it. It refunds MP you could of used on an attack on a shield if you shield well, this doesn't need to change. I want DRK tanking to give you damage for good Defense.

Fuck it, give it two charges like Oblation and remove Oblation, so that it CAN be used more often and provide more consistent return while retaining all of the flexibility, that'll even allow it to actually be the "shield tank,"

Then they would have to erase the MP attack reward from it because then its a chance for two oGCD attacks. I don't think anyone wants it to be a shield tank people want it to be the revenge tank.

If that just won't work then the offensive uses of MP have to be reworked, or else none of it will ever change or see any additions or improvements, period.

Agreed MP should be reworked and good MP management should make DRK have the highest damage ceiling of all Tanks.

[wildvenonat]

And then half the time you're wishing the 7-second duration and/or 12-second cooldown were one second longer/faster.

Yep! It's available so much that you feel it every time it's not.

[Oizen]

So your argument is "don't change it cause in our opener we can get one extra oGCD?" I honestly don't give anywhere enough of a shit about one oGCD in the opener to actually want to leave the job hamstrung otherwise...

Yes my argument is that TBN allows for a certain level of skill expression in an otherwise scripted game. This is objectively more interesting than press button.

No, that is not the end result, that's a baseless assumption you're using to try and justify your position by effectively ignoring most of what I've said.

Its REALLY not though, I can tell you haven't been around here too long. Or maybe you haven't been paying attention.
Lets look at a recent example, the removal of plunge and how controversial that has been.
They didn't want damage on a utility move anymore and wanted to lower DRK weaving, fine.
So they remove the damage from the gap closer.

What they could have done instead is allow the new gap closer to work like thunderclap, allowing you to dash to the boss or an ally, allowing added utility to make up for the lost damage.
Maybe they could have even buffed Enhanced Unmend, you know the gap closer trait exclusive to Dark Knight, that was already so niche in EW content that it was basically useless because boss hitboxes are so big it just doesn't matter?
Did they do either of this? nah. Just remove the damage.

Enhanced Unmend, arguably one of the worst, most memed on traits in the game, got nerfed. And I guarantee you it didn't even cross their mind when doing making this change.
This is the level of care they put into job reworking, bare minimum, remove, reduce, simplify, never replace or add to it

BLM had several abilities removed and replaced with others that expanded their rotations. I just don't see any logical sense in sticking to such negativity to think "it can never happen so stop wanting better."

The fact you wrote this tells me how aware you are of how well those changes are being received. You really shouldn't argue about things you don't really know anything about.

[VicariousXIV]

The fact its possible shows theres an inbalance even if its 1% in sync'd content a healer isnt needed thats an objective balance problem the same way it would be a problem if a tank wasn't necessary. TBN not directly healing you is one of the few tank CDs that doesn't contribute to this problem.

And once more I will reiterate that I'm aware there's an imbalance, it just isn't "part of the problem" in the vast majority of endgame content for the even vaster majority of players to use CDs with heals in them every so often.

It is, its why Stuns and most movement tools no longer do potency the devs agreed with me. Utility =/ Damage, damage will always matter more to people.

Uh, yeah, which is why I'm saying combine them better?

Because TBN is a good defensive tool thats why WAR and GNB both have barriers on their short GCDs and why theres an entire healing subrole based around barriers.

I never said barriers were bad. But yes, WAR and GNB having barriers on top of everything else they do is part of the reason why they're so much more interesting then TBN.

I want DRK to do more damage than WAR and GNB and I think TBN is good tool for it. It refunds MP you could of used on an attack on a shield if you shield well, this doesn't need to change. I want DRK tanking to give you damage for good Defense.

Yeah, me too, which is why I made the suggestions I did, cause getting a refund for lost DPS does not equate to more damage then if you'd just gone for damage. You should actually GET more damage for properly using your defense.

Then they would have to erase the MP attack reward from it because then its a chance for two oGCD attacks. I don't think anyone wants it to be a shield tank people want it to be the revenge tank.

Well no, that's my point, you attack with each break, getting two oGCDs likely wouldn't even push it past WAR, much less GNB, not unless the DT changes close the gap a fair amount. And sure, a lot of people might want that, but I've seen A LOT of people saying they want to be "the shield tank" every time I've seen anyone suggest moving away from shielding. But honestly they really just go hand in hand anyways.

Agreed MP should be reworked and good MP management should make DRK have the highest damage ceiling of all Tanks.

DRK not being the highest damage tank just feels like they fucked up, I love WAR but I should not be able to so easily out damage a DRK with it.

[Praesul]

I'm honestly surprised at this point they haven't added extra effects to Salted Earth at least. I do think that just copying things from pvp when people bring it up tends to not be the solution since a lot of pvp design doesn't exactly carry over to pve, but Salted Earth would function just fine if it worked as it did in pvp. There's precedent for that sort of ability in other MMOs too, tank jobs in other games have massive aoe draw-ins that are really nice for dungeons, and there's NPCs in the game (usually marauder or warrior equivalents) that have something along those lines too lol.

In WoW tank paladins get a benefit by standing in their ground aoe, it would be nice if you got the regen like in pvp or damage reduction. It would probably make more sense to get regen while you stand inside because if it were extra mit people would just complain that a DPS button has a defensive component to it, and people haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate having to forgo damage for defensive benefit, and regen effects make more sense as "light cooldowns" you can just pop regularly without feeling too bad if they get wasted.

Abyssal Drain should probably be untethered from Carve and Spit at this point too, or just be reworked. I'm surprised they haven't brought over Dread Spikes from XI, for those that don't know it was a spell they could use that dealt back the damage that was dealt to the DRK, back to the enemy, and healed for the same amount. It capped out at 50% of your max HP, so once you healed for that amount it would wear off. Some reworking of the spell would be pretty nice and help DRK sustain in dungeons without being overpowering against bosses. Maybe not have the damage portion and just be a cooldown that heals you every time you take damage, then just distribute the Abyssal Drain potency into their other skills.

As for TBN I'm not sure if the devs could ever change it to satisfy most people. I'm one of those that likes the fact that it costs MP and potentially makes the ability more interesting, especially when you optimize and try to carry over the "free" edge into raid buffs. But realistically most content in the game doesn't do enough damage to break the shield, so the short 15 sec CD isn't too advantageous. I'd love to be able to pop TBN on the reg and get value out of it but if it doesn't break it just feels way too bad. I think if incoming damage was increased across the board people's feelings on it would change, both in casual and savage/ultimate content.

[VicariousXIV]

I'm honestly surprised at this point they haven't added extra effects to Salted Earth at least. .... that have something along those lines too lol.

In WoW tank paladins get a benefit by standing in their ground aoe ..... you can just pop regularly without feeling too bad if they get wasted.

Yeah it was actually Blood Death Knight that came to mind when I heard that SE can pull enemies into it in PvP, which is why I immediately thought "why the fuck did they not include that in PvE!?" lol

I personally think in this case a direct 1 to 1 transfer of both skills would work, but yeah in most cases I would agree that some tweaks would be necessary.

Abyssal Drain should probably be untethered from Carve and Spit at this point too ...... then just distribute the Abyssal Drain potency into their other skills.

Yeah honestly prior to them creating the solution to dungeon difficulties for the DRK in the form of the PvP SE, my own suggestion was to just uncouple AD from CN and give AD an MP cost while removing it's MP regen and lowering it's CD. Now I think that would be overkill, especially if they just used the SE PvP version in PvE lol

Also, they probably haven't included this Dread Spikes ability cause it sounds like Vengeance for WAR, but hey they have some more overlap in the defensives now, might be something that's possible.

As for TBN I'm not sure if the devs could ever change it to satisfy most people..... I think if incoming damage was increased across the board people's feelings on it would change, both in casual and savage/ultimate content.

I think it breaks just fine in most content, unless ofc you mean for more regular use, cause yeah in the majority of content it won't break unless hit by a tank buster or something along those lines.

Idk if more damage to cause it to break more often would really change my feelings on it at all, it's still just an avoidance of punishment more so then a reward, but hey maybe if it was easier to break in more content and it provided something on top of just another oGCD you'd have used otherwise anyways, perhaps more people's sentiments would change.