Give Warrior the Dark Knight treatment in regards to Bloodwhetting

[rawker]

It has been established that WAR mains are never contented with what they have and will demand for more.

[Absurdity]

It has been established that WAR mains are never contented with what they have and will demand for more.

Actually true, I'm not content. My job has systematically been turned from a tank that was easy to pick up but had intricacies to master into an utterly bland spamfest with overtuned healing and flashy effects to obfuscate the complete lack of creative design, probably one of the most boring jobs I've had the displeasure of experiencing.

[Praesul]

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It's funny how you seem to think the attitude I have is "No no no, mine, mine toys, I don't want to share waaah" when the reality is when I saw the other tanks getting strong self-healing buffs on their cooldowns I was like "oh cool" rather than complaining and crying for nerfs because... Other people get to have fun?

WAR hasn't been "the best" since HW, and perhaps arguably SB. It's always been on the lower end of damage output, and it's self-healing is far less valuable in savage and ultimates where damage is far higher then most encounters in the game. In fact I bet most players don't even know what actual, primary reason people take WAR into hard content is because players are so blinded by fell cleave spam and the fact that you can do dungeons without a healer. Newsflash: You can do the same on other tanks. In fact, you can do dungeons WITHOUT A TANK OR A HEALER AT ALL. I should know because I've done it before in all DPS groups.

Clearly DPS self-survivability and healing needs massive nerfs because it's putting all the supports out of a job.

It's also hilarious you think the job is responsible for "dumbing down" as if the devs took one good look at the job and they were like "oh god what have we done" and not the fact that they've gone on record to say they do it because it makes things easier to balance and more approachable to new players. All the tanks have self-sustain because having agency is FUN. No one likes being at the complete whim of random players, I've played old MMOs where tanks are nothing but HP sponges with garbage damage and garbage healing. You just become a minigame for the healer and you're just there to stand in front of the boss. That's not fun, and guess what, modern MMO devs have realized that. When you do the ACTUAL DIFFICULT CONTENT and not the content your grandma can do, the strengths of every role come into play without one role being able to carry the whole experience.

The fact of the matter is, self-healing IS WAR's thing, has ALWAYS been WAR's thing, and will ALWAYS be WAR's thing. I don't care how garbage their damage is, that's one thing they can, should, and always will keep. If the devs want to sprinkle in some healing on other tanks then so be it but the job deserves to be the best at that one thing. Beg the devs for diversity and strengths for other jobs instead of being crabs in a bucket.

Multiple expansions of the job having crazy self-healing and the devs haven't done anything to nerf it, almost as if it's the intention.

[Supersnow845]

snip

How about how WAR encroaches on the healer role. Every buff to tanks to give them their own power fantasy further and further pushes the healers to the edges

On an average savage pull the WAR heals themselves more than the healer heals them, is that not a reason to consider needs to WAR, sure the reason people generally bring WAR is actually ease of play and holmgang but WAR isn’t just warping tanks, it’s warping the healers as well and this is in all levels of play not to mention every buff to the other tanks to counter WAR’s dominance also further warps healers

[Praesul]

How about how WAR encroaches on the healer role. Every buff to tanks to give them their own power fantasy further and further pushes the healers to the edges

On an average savage pull the WAR heals themselves more than the healer heals them, is that not a reason to consider needs to WAR, sure the reason people generally bring WAR is actually ease of play and holmgang but WAR isn’t just warping tanks, it’s warping the healers as well and this is in all levels of play not to mention every buff to the other tanks to counter WAR’s dominance also further warps healers

WAR cannot raise, and it can't aoe mitigate and aoe heal to the extent that healers can. Don't be disingenuous. WAR could lose all of its self-healing and healers would still not be healing, because it's an encounter design problem and not the fault of ONE JOB.

Healer oGCDs are so powerful you can do entire savage tiers without a single GCD heal, or minimal GCD healing. That's not the fault of tanks.

[GoatOfWar]

but the job deserves to be the best at that one thing. Beg the devs for diversity and strengths for other jobs instead of being crabs in a bucket.

Multiple expansions of the job having crazy self-healing and the devs haven't done anything to nerf it, almost as if it's the intention.

The problem with that is that any time Drk DOES something better than War, the War players are up in arms about it and get it streamlined.
Dark knight having reprisal? Unfair, every tank needs this!*Every tank gets it*
Dark knight being the mobility tank? Unfair! *Gets twice as many gapclosers*
Dark knight has the best short cooldown mit? That's sooooo unfair! *Gets bloodwhetting*
Other tank invulns last longer than ours because they have longer cooldowns, so unfair! *Every tank now has the same invuln duration but the cooldowns are untouched*

There's a blatant bias towards Warrior and an overrepresentation of people playing the job, largely thanks to streamers.
Right now, i have *no* reason to play another tank over Warrior, because the ONE thing it lacked in was damage, which is now streamlined too. (As per Warrior player demand)
The job and people playing it leave no breathing room for other tanks to carve out a niche.

[Praesul]

The problem with that is that any time Drk DOES something better than War, the War players are up in arms about it and get it streamlined.
Dark knight having reprisal? Unfair, every tank needs this!*Every tank gets it*
Dark knight being the mobility tank? Unfair! *Gets twice as many gapclosers*
Dark knight has the best short cooldown mit? That's sooooo unfair! *Gets bloodwhetting*
Other tank invulns last longer than ours because they have longer cooldowns, so unfair! *Every tank now has the same invuln duration but the cooldowns are untouched*

Honestly I shouldn't reply because you seem really offended at some imaginary boogieman and are just arguing in bad faith but whatever, I'll bite just so other people can see the actual reasoning rather than being driven nuts by emotion.

Reprisal was made a role action because every single tank lost their mitigation on their combo ender. Rage of Halone, Storm's Path and Delirium. Encounters in the past were designed with these IN MIND, so once they were gone the role needed another way to apply the 10% damage reduction. On top of that players were complaining that PLD and DRK had skills they couldn't use when they weren't actively tanking (loss of shield swipe procs, loss of reprisal and low blow procs) so players were given a way to do so regardless if they were OT or MT. It was win/win.

Other tanks were given gapclosers because people wanted gapclosers. I didn't really care, and wouldn't care if they removed them all, or kept them all or whatever. People over exaggerate how useful they actually are in pve content and they're mostly used for damage (which I'm also okay with). Originally WAR's gapcloser had a gauge cost while Plunge was free which was fine, there were pros and cons. Now GNB/DRK get a non-damaging gapcloser so they can use it EXCLUSIVELY for mobility, so I'm not sure why you're upset about this? Now there' actual differentiation within the role, however small. Which is nice.

Giving the other tanks TBN equivalents was a change in design they were going to do anyway. Active mitigation is more fun and engaging than the older designs. I don't really care which is the strongest or weakest since they're all, in the scenarios they're designed for, more than enough. TBN gets the added benefit of adding depth at high level play because it can be a DPS increase if you carry over the edge proc into raid buffs, but I'm sure no one cares.

The tank invuln thing is blatantly wrong. They got changed because certain tankbusters at the time were so long, "only" PLD and DRK were able to get use out of them. Both WAR and GNB would just die. The devs decided that was a problem, so they increased both their duration. And Holmgang DID get adjusted because of it, so I'm not sure where you're coming from with the "cooldowns are untouched" thing since.... You know it got verifiably nerfed in that department.

Tank players in general throw massive hissyfits when there's even the slighest amount of imbalance. People will complain about small things that don't make an actual difference. In terms of performance all the tanks are probably the closest they have ever been, with DPS output within like 2% of each other and enough mitigation to deal with ALL content in the game with no issue at all and people will still find a reason to complain.

[Launched]

The problem with that is that any time Drk DOES something better than War, the War players are up in arms about it and get it streamlined.
Dark knight having reprisal? Unfair, every tank needs this!*Every tank gets it*
Dark knight being the mobility tank? Unfair! *Gets twice as many gapclosers*
Dark knight has the best short cooldown mit? That's sooooo unfair! *Gets bloodwhetting*
Other tank invulns last longer than ours because they have longer cooldowns, so unfair! *Every tank now has the same invuln duration but the cooldowns are untouched*

It's really hard to take you seriously when you insist on blaming WAR players for the dev's choices to homogenize all jobs.

WAR already had Storm's Path in HW when DRK had Reprisal/Delirum. All 3 tanks lost their raidwide mitigation as part of their rotation in SB and got given Reprisal instead.
WAR got Onslaught an expansion after DRK, it was actually unique since it had a shorter cooldown but costed gauge. It got homogenised in ShB to match PLD/DRK/GNB because no one is allowed to have unique things. Literally no one asked for a GCD gap closer or 3rd stack in EW.
ShB Nascent Flash was already better than TBN anyway. No one asked for the Bloodwhetting upgrades, and they happened at the time Sheltron/HoS got big healing buffs through their upgrades too.
Holmgang did get a cooldown nerf, and its duration buff to 10s happened at the same time as Superbolide got buffed because again, the devs don't let any job have unique things.

[aiqa]

WAR cannot raise, and it can't aoe mitigate and aoe heal to the extent that healers can. Don't be disingenuous. WAR could lose all of its self-healing and healers would still not be healing, because it's an encounter design problem and not the fault of ONE JOB.

Healer oGCDs are so powerful you can do entire savage tiers without a single GCD heal, or minimal GCD healing. That's not the fault of tanks.

So if the WAR doesn't selfheal, and healers don't heal the WAR, how do you imagine the WAR stays alive during any boss fight? And are you saying it would be fine for WAR to lose all selfhealing then? Since it's not needed anyway.

[fulminating]

WAR got Onslaught an expansion after DRK, it was actually unique since it had a shorter cooldown but costed gauge. It got homogenised in ShB to match PLD/DRK/GNB because no one is allowed to have unique things.

Onslaught was homogenised in 6.0, but it's not like it makes much difference to your argument.