The new MCH is still a total joke

[Sylvain]

- Flamethrower is still the same garbage. Are you kidding me? Why is this skill even kept in the game if you don't intend to make it relevant in any way shape or form, or include it into the actual rotation? This is worthless, especially with the potency increases on the rest of the AoE kit!
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Yeh, this one is just a head scratcher. However I don't see where you'd fit a 5s channeling into the single rotation without disrupting the whole thing.
But yes they could, at the very least, make it do a butt load of AoE dmg.

- Battery still has no AoE options. What am I supposed to do with my battery in AoE scenari? Sit and overcap on it and pretend it doesn't exist?

They could make flamethrower do it :3? but yes bummer too.

- Double Check and Checkmate are exactly identical in effect. Is this a typo, or the real thing? Not gonna lie, I kinda prefer it that way because the old gauss vs ricochet was just weird with one being AoE and not the other, but they are... the same? Isn't that a little lazy?

It's called a visual upgrade.
In the same way healer get Stone, StoneII, StoneIII, Glare, GlareIII
Like seriously you can't be mad a that? On SMN sure, a visual upgrade as lv90 skills sucked, but as a leveling thing? Who cares? it's pretty. Same thing just prettier.

- Excavator is just Chainsaw 2.0. Literally no difference beyond the AoE shape.

- Full Metal Field is autocrit, meaning that we can't even dedicate reassemble or anything to it, it's literally baked inside! Even if you want to fuck up the rotation, you can't anymore because the job literally plays for you! Welcome to MCH Kaitengate without even losing kaiten.

So? If anything it means you've more choice on where to reassemble instead of always reassembling this one skill.

And yeh excavator is a minor thing indeed. I feel they could have gone with a different follow-up than the chain saw.

[Valence]

It's called a visual upgrade.
In the same way healer get Stone, StoneII, StoneIII, Glare, GlareIII
Like seriously you can't be mad a that? On SMN sure, a visual upgrade as lv90 skills sucked, but as a leveling thing? Who cares? it's pretty. Same thing just prettier.

I think i'm expressing myself very badly. I was lowkey expecting nothing more than standard upgrades for those two and heat blast, and it didn't disappoint. They're as you say, basic upgrades, nothing more, but that's not the point.
The point I was making is that they're identical. They were also identical except the AoE part back then, which was odd, so I'm glad they both have cleaving now, but I'm calling it lazy because they essentially made them identical, that's it really. They do have a minor role as they still force you to alternate between 2 ogcd buttons instead of just one, so there is that, but I still do feel it's lazy, but again, it's better than when gauss had no AoE (actually curious to see if the base gauss has an AoE or not now).

So? If anything it means you've more choice on where to reassemble instead of always reassembling this one skill.

And yeh excavator is a minor thing indeed. I feel they could have gone with a different follow-up than the chain saw.

Yes, I know that FMF is specifically made autocrit to keep freedom on reassemble targets. But it also means like all those all flash no substance 2min skills that are unlocked by pressing your buff/burst button, the rotation just plays on its own when it comes to it without any form of other input for it. Just press a button, watch a nuke go on without any kind of effort. Perhaps my dislike of this was more aimed at those copypasted skills in general than FMF specifically.

[CKNovel]

Yes, I know that FMF is specifically made autocrit to keep freedom on reassemble targets. But it also means like all those all flash no substance 2min skills that are unlocked by pressing your buff/burst button, the rotation just plays on its own when it comes to it without any form of other input for it. Just press a button, watch a nuke go on without any kind of effort. Perhaps my dislike of this was more aimed at those copypasted skills in general than FMF specifically.

I don't understand what you're expecting.
All jobs are "press button to execute action, see action". It's even the basis of RPGs.
That's double down, that's shadowbringer, that's Midare... You need to think before you press the nuke, not after.

For example, the "combo" nature of FMF and Excavator allows the player to hold it to nuke adds that would spawn after a burst window without delaying anything outside of raidbuff.

[Valence]

I don't understand what you're expecting.
All jobs are "press button to execute action, see action". It's even the basis of RPGs.
That's double down, that's shadowbringer, that's Midare... You need to think before you press the nuke, not after.

For example, the "combo" nature of FMF and Excavator allows the player to hold it to nuke adds that would spawn after a burst window without delaying anything outside of raidbuff.

No, it is not.

You're conflating basic filler GCDs that you just press and they do things (or actually build resources unlike those), with more powerful abilities that usually require spenders, or building up to them, or require actual input and thought from the rotation and the player. And yes, I do include long CD weaponskills into the same boring, bland category as those "press raid buff get nuke" buttons. If anything, the latter are a little better because they still offer some flexibility of when to use them unlike the former that just need to be pressed on cooldown period.

Shadowbringers is essentially a boring long CD ability yes (welcome to tanking).

Midare is not, it's tied to the gauge you need to build, and it can get interesting plays around Hagakure and therefore offers choice and input to the player.

Like i've said before... this game is on auto. They reskin, up the potencies, the stats, shuffle the maze of a dungeon, raid, etc around and presto! New expansion. Healing in this game is broken. Combat is broken. No elemental damage that matters any more. No weaknesses that matter. No directionals that matter. Everything has been simplified to death to make their job easier. Not hard to balance if every job within a role is essentially the same. gear? It's all the same. Materia? Its all cookie cutter predetemined. Combat? Tag and burn it down. wall to wall. Every dungeon. All the time. Healers? When u learn the fight healing is trivialized. Then you smash your one dps button and your second now though you have to wait two mins because its tied to another abilitiy. joy!
I miss the old machinist from hw bring that back.

It's the crux of the matter when you defame the battle system of all of its components until you have no lego block differences to build with. The current state of the game is like sculpting a statue from a block of wood, ARR was the block of wood with rough shapes, HW was the actual figure shaped up but with rough edges, SB was the same finished product with some shards here and there, and then ShB/EW/DT is literally the artist that went too far, disfigured the whole figure, and has not enough wood left to salvage the final result.

this is a great idea synergy! so if a mob has bioblaster ticking away and we flamet them it immediate consumes the dot? or doubles the damage? Turns the flame green? Something!

Yeah interactions between FT and bioblaster have been advanced by players for a long while now, and I do think that having 2 charges on bioblaster now could ironically make the idea even more interesting and actually make use of those charges.

I do hope SE would take note of this and rig a little something quickly for DT's launch. It's not like it's gonna affect balance or anything since it's just AoE and dungeons. Same for adding AoE on battery moves... Could even add some AoE cleaves on Anchor tbh, the visual animation is already kinda AoE.

You miss lowest dps for highest cost and being denied access to raids?

Stop spreading misinformation. MCH was part of the meta comps with BRD/DRG/SMN. It was god tier on balance as long as a DRG was present as well.

If anything it's SHB and EW MCH that has been in the gutter consistently for FIVE years now, literally bottom feeder of the whole DPS roster it's not even funny. It's been constantly rebuffed since then, and never managed to cope even after those buffs. It's currently still sitting at the bottom of the cDPS charts making a 3rd group of its own, that's how bad its current balance is and has been since it was butchered in ShB. Good grief.

All the machinist stuff when I saw it struck me as "like samurai - but worse!" But they still haven't fixed wildfire, flamer, rook turret/queen, autocrossbow...

Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out why the whole idea of phys ranged as a concept even exists at this point. If not for the 1% buff and limit break generation, I don't know what else it really brings that makes it worth bringing. Throughout a lot of Endwalker I sort of felt like as a machinist I just existed in raids to tick off a box. I just don't see that changing in Dawntrail, and it's a little sad to me.

Yeah, the state of rphys has been depressing since their rework in ShB and the party bonus changes. We used to have double rphys or double caster comps before since the party bonus worked differently (it only increased by 1% the main stat of the role you brought, so it didn't benefit other party members to bring other roles except tanks because of VIT). Either way, not saying it was better or anything, but they specifically changed it because they removed the infamous piercing synergies that were hiding the fact that rphys brought less damage to a party than everybody else otherwise. Now they needed a true reason to still be picked up, and the only reason they found was to bring up that new party bonus.

At least they promised us in the media tour interviews that they want to give specific roles again to mechanics resolutions in encounters like notably to the off tank, or some ranged players, that only they would be able to do. I do intend to remind them of this if it doesnt happen or deliver because it's a good way to make the role viable again. Rphys has been into a sort of grey limbo because while it's not as egregious as the state of support roles right now, it's still... an afterthought that consistently goes under the radar compared to melees and casters.

[CKNovel]

No, it is not.

You're conflating basic filler GCDs that you just press and they do things (or actually build resources unlike those), with more powerful abilities that usually require spenders, or building up to them, or require actual input and thought from the rotation and the player. And yes, I do include long CD weaponskills into the same boring, bland category as those "press raid buff get nuke" buttons. If anything, the latter are a little better because they still offer some flexibility of when to use them unlike the former that just need to be pressed on cooldown period.

Shadowbringers is essentially a boring long CD ability yes (welcome to tanking).

Midare is not, it's tied to the gauge you need to build, and it can get interesting plays around Hagakure and therefore offers choice and input to the player.

Again, you press midare and you see it being executed, building the stickers doesn't had that much depth to it.
Hagakure only exists to clean your stickers and not overcap on stickers, it's linked to the gauge and SAM's buffs management, not Midare.
If anything it supports my argument that you need to think before pressing it than after.

I agree that MCH has tools that play themselves too much but Full Metal Field isn't one of them.
"Press 120/60 get nuke" is a bit repetitive but I don't think it's a bad design, it's going to bring a big level of flexibility and I want to see more of this in the future.

Wouldn't be great if pressing Drill allows MCH to engage a "Drill combo", pressing Air Anchor engage a "Air Anchor combo" then finally Chain saw engages Excavator into a final GCD?
MCH is one of the jobs that could benefit the most from the follow-up actions. Make Flamethrower a GCD follow-up on Drill. I think this is a very good direction for MCH and they should double down on it.

[Valence]

Again, you press midare and you see it being executed, building the stickers doesn't had that much depth to it.
Hagakure only exists to clean your stickers and not overcap on stickers, it's linked to the gauge and SAM's buffs management, not Midare.
If anything it supports my argument that you need to think before pressing it than after.

I agree that MCH has tools that play themselves too much but Full Metal Field isn't one of them.
"Press 120/60 get nuke" is a bit repetitive but I don't think it's a bad design, it's going to bring a big level of flexibility and I want to see more of this in the future.

Wouldn't be great if pressing Drill allows MCH to engage a "Drill combo", pressing Air Anchor engage a "Air Anchor combo" then finally Chain saw engages Excavator into a final GCD?
MCH is one of the jobs that could benefit the most from the follow-up actions. Make Flamethrower a GCD follow-up on Drill. I think this is a very good direction for MCH and they should double down on it.

Now you're just using bad faith arguments. You're building stickers, you have to keep the loopium going, and adjust with hagakure, and of course hagakure is tied to midare since it's tied to your stickers... It directly feeds on the same resource, which immediately introduces choices. That's miles above than just pressing a button to reap the reward.

I don't think your ideas of boring tank combo followups applied to MCH tools is exactly my idea of an engaging mch rotation tbh...

It's not a bad design per se. Same as 1-2-3 combo or simple ogcd dps attacks are not a bad designs. But when almost all jobs have those and/or a job only consists of this things they become stale very fast.

It's a problem in my eyes when it's your big lvl100 capstone nukes have to produce literally zero effort beyond pressing your raid buff button to unlock it. You know which of those I can at least appreciate a little more? Radiant Encore, since it's based on the amount of Coda stacks. Not that much better since you're just gonna get them anyway (unless you die), but at least you're building up to it a little. Well, is it so alien to imagine that capstones have to be earned? It used to be like that...

[CKNovel]

Now you're just using bad faith arguments. You're building stickers, you have to keep the loopium going, and adjust with hagakure, and of course hagakure is tied to midare since it's tied to your stickers... It directly feeds on the same resource, which immediately introduces choices. That's miles above than just pressing a button to reap the reward.

I don't think your ideas of boring tank combo followups applied to MCH tools is exactly my idea of an engaging mch rotation tbh...

That's an exagerated explanation of Hagakure use case. You'll use it for the same purpose: To clean up your stickers.
Yes, it has implications for your loop, but so does the BS and FMF. But the effect is to ultimately to clean up your sticker.
That would be like arguing that Excavator and FMF are so big brain because they change your heat gauge economy and that indirectly it's linked to Hypercharge. That's mental gymnastic.

Then let's compare what is comparable. FMF is not Hagakure, it's Ogi Namikiri.
I don't think I've ever seen any complaints about Ikishoten and Ogi Namikiri?

[Kreyd]

It's a problem in my eyes when it's your big lvl100 capstone nukes have to produce literally zero effort beyond pressing your raid buff button to unlock it. You know which of those I can at least appreciate a little more? Radiant Encore, since it's based on the amount of Coda stacks. Not that much better since you're just gonna get them anyway (unless you die), but at least you're building up to it a little. Well, is it so alien to imagine that capstones have to be earned? It used to be like that...

I'm totally with you. Something that you have to build up or play correctly for will always feel more satisfying than just a huge dmg button on a cooldown. But this is what most jobs in DT seem to get. As for why? I dunno. Maybe they really are working on heavy Job reworks for 8.0 like they say, and just want to play it safe for DT. Wouldn't put my hand into fire for it, but it would make sense.

[Ruminous]

Yeah, the state of rphys has been depressing since their rework in ShB and the party bonus changes. We used to have double rphys or double caster comps before since the party bonus worked differently (it only increased by 1% the main stat of the role you brought, so it didn't benefit other party members to bring other roles except tanks because of VIT). Either way, not saying it was better or anything, but they specifically changed it because they removed the infamous piercing synergies that were hiding the fact that rphys brought less damage to a party than everybody else otherwise. Now they needed a true reason to still be picked up, and the only reason they found was to bring up that new party bonus.

At least they promised us in the media tour interviews that they want to give specific roles again to mechanics resolutions in encounters like notably to the off tank, or some ranged players, that only they would be able to do. I do intend to remind them of this if it doesnt happen or deliver because it's a good way to make the role viable again. Rphys has been into a sort of grey limbo because while it's not as egregious as the state of support roles right now, it's still... an afterthought that consistently goes under the radar compared to melees and casters.

Yeah, I like the idea of comps that can be different and utilize the difference. But, SE seems to want parties to be 2 melee/1phys range/1 caster. Alas, I don't think having mechanics that require a phys ranged to do is the correct answer either, as it sort of means you have that token player there. To me that feels worse, since I'm still just being brought along to check a box and not because I can be competitive or useful. A couple fights already have a mechanic like that, but until that point...Well, you get the idea.

Fundamentally, dps itself needs to be reexamined. A lot of the old philosophy in terms of the design of them still seem to be enforced after all the various reworks the roles have gone through, plus the changes to fight design in general.