Are we going to keep pretending that PC and console players are the same?

[Azureskies01]

Bluntly stated, the reason they won't do this is they can't. We have long moved past the point of putting that rabbit back in his hat. Taking a stance of "no third party" and actively forcing DRM would cost them millions. The sheer number of players using mods and/or plugins is staggering. And a not insignificant number of those players will quit the game instantly the second they attempt this. Which is why SE takes the stance they do. It essentially the best of both worlds from their perspective. Players can customize to their heart's content but if they make it too public, SE always has the agility to step in.

Let's say for a second that you are right even though you aren't. What incentive would SE have for keeping the teams that make any difficult/challenging content if they know for a fact people are just going to cheat to complete it? I'll answer the question as I'm not sure you would be able to understand it, there would be none. Yoshi-p has stated as much himself so yeah lets just all continue to think that them banning cheaters will end up killing their game somehow. Even though by allowing cheaters to exist in their game with no recourse they are hamstringing their own development teams.

I look forward to the day when they disable CC and stop coming out with savage and ults just for you, random player that like to cheat. <3

[ForteNightshade]

Let's say for a second that you are right even though you aren't. What incentive would SE have for keeping the teams that make any difficult/challenging content if they know for a fact people are just going to cheat to complete it? I'll answer the question as I'm not sure you would be able to understand it, there would be none. Yoshi-p has stated as much himself so yeah lets just all continue to think that them banning cheaters will end up killing their game somehow. Even though by allowing cheaters to exist in their game with no recourse they are hamstringing their own development teams.

I look forward to the day when they disable CC and stop coming out with savage and ults just for you, random player that like to cheat. <3

Holy assumption batman. Glad to see you argue in good faith. I didn't mention a single plugin nor that I have any installed but you immediately accused me of using cheats. I mean, guess I could slay with a cute hairstyle but I dunno. <3

Putting all that aside, you yourself have acknowledged the widespread use of third party these days. That isn't exclusive to just the raid scene. In fact, appearance mods have become even more ubiquitous. Not to mention simply QoL plugins like chat bubble. Throwing around assumptions that only cheaters use third party is just plain ignorance at point. So when you advocate for DRM, all of these player demographics are being impacted. To put into perspective the size of the RP community alone, well... two very popular plugins have unique download estimations exceeding half a million. Once you account for everything else, we've reached the point where there are more PC players using at least some form of third party than not.

So let's do a bit of math here. If say, 100,000 players--less than 10%-- of the playerbase quit after a completely full proof form of DRM broke all third party tools. That's an estimated loss of 18M USD, annually. Not only is that a very low estimation but is just the subscription fee, no retainers or Mogstation purchases. Suffice it to say, it's an enormous amount of money suddenly gone for no actual benefit. Square Enix gets literally nothing out of enforcing this.

As for why bother developing hard content. Has it ever occurred to you the majority of players don't actually cheat? Those cheat plugins don't make up even a fragment of the QoL ones or mods, all of which do nothing to impact actual gameplay. AM is only a thing in Ultimate PF, which is a fraction of an almost small fraction. Something to keep in mind too, is Ultimate was never intended for party finder. JP, famous for how active their PF scene is, barely touches any of the Ultimates, including the hilariously power crept UwU. And their solution for Gaols is to kill four players so the mechanic can only function on the remaining three (it can't target the MT), thus nullifying it completely. TOP and DSR basically don't exist in PF for them. So this notion that cheating is taking over just isn't really a thing outside a very specific niche in a fight never designed for a PF environment.

In other words, they'll design hard content for everyone else because most players aren't using those particular plugins.

The problem with banning cheaters is it's an all or nothing deal. They aren't going to pick between this plugin or that one. All of them will go away, which will have a much larger impact than AM ever did.

[Azureskies01]

Every single person that uses a third party program that interfaces with either the RAM (dalamud) or watches packets (act) is cheating. There is no gray area for that and you making a long post trying to explain it away is fine but ultimately pointless.

Also you say that so many people cheat that they wouldn't dare put an anti cheat in the game and in the same post you say that most people don't cheat....


**** I fell for the bait didn't I?.....ffs

[Saraide]

Let's say for a second that you are right even though you aren't. What incentive would SE have for keeping the teams that make any difficult/challenging content if they know for a fact people are just going to cheat to complete it? I'll answer the question as I'm not sure you would be able to understand it, there would be none. Yoshi-p has stated as much himself so yeah lets just all continue to think that them banning cheaters will end up killing their game somehow. Even though by allowing cheaters to exist in their game with no recourse they are hamstringing their own development teams.

I look forward to the day when they disable CC and stop coming out with savage and ults just for you, random player that like to cheat. <3

SE makes ultimates and savage because that drives engagement for months for tons of people with very little investments in terms of new assets. Not out of the goodness of their hearts or for the love of challenging content, they do it for money.

[Turtledeluxe]

SE makes ultimates and savage because that drives engagement for months for tons of people with very little investments in terms of new assets. Not out of the goodness of their hearts or for the love of challenging content, they do it for money.

What does that have to do with the post you responded to? Yoshi P has directly stated there is no point in difficult content if people are just going to cheat. Sorry your adoring game has contradictory policies.

[ForteNightshade]

Every single person that uses a third party program that interfaces with either the RAM (dalamud) or watches packets (act) is cheating. There is no gray area for that and you making a long post trying to explain it away is fine but ultimately pointless.

Also you say that so many people cheat that they wouldn't dare put an anti cheat in the game and in the same post you say that most people don't cheat....


**** I fell for the bait didn't I?.....ffs

You can deny it all you want but there is a grey area due to SE not taking a draconian stance with their ToS. Trying to argue hair and body mods are remotely comparable to Cactbot is laughable.

Furthermore, you specifically asked why SE would continue developing hard content when AM exists. That's a wholly different argument than "every plugin ever is ChEaTiNG OMG!!!!!" One actually provides a gameplay advantage whereas the other makes your character have bigger boobs. I mean... I guess that's some kind of advantage

It's not bait to acknowledge that installing DRM will have a heavily negative impact due to how prevalent third party has become. You can lump them altogether if you fancy, that doesn't change anything i said above.

What does that have to do with the post you responded to? Yoshi P has directly stated there is no point in difficult content if people are just going to cheat. Sorry your adoring game has contradictory policies.

Because like I said above, the amount of people actually using those specific plugins isn't significant compared to everyone else doing the content without them. Both you and Azure are mischaracterizing Yoshida's comment. His response about not making difficult content was towards a zoom hack not hair mods.

[Azureskies01]

As I said before in this thread for us the player there is a distinction between body mods and combat mods but the ToS makes no distinction. It is all equal cheating under the rules. You being a cheater apologist though is funny.

No we are not mischaracterizing anything. He flat out said that they don't know why they are making ults if people are just going to cheat. Solution, put an anti cheat in the game baby

[Turtledeluxe]

You can deny it all you want but there is a grey area due to SE not taking a draconian stance with their ToS. Trying to argue hair and body mods are remotely comparable to Cactbot is laughable.

Furthermore, you specifically asked why SE would continue developing hard content when AM exists. That's a wholly different argument than "every plugin ever is ChEaTiNG OMG!!!!!" One actually provides a gameplay advantage whereas the other makes your character have bigger boobs. I mean... I guess that's some kind of advantage

It's not bait to acknowledge that installing DRM will have a heavily negative impact due to how prevalent third party has become. You can lump them altogether if you fancy, that doesn't change anything i said above.



Because like I said above, the amount of people actually using those specific plugins isn't significant compared to everyone else doing the content without them. Both you and Azure are mischaracterizing Yoshida's comment. His response about not making difficult content was towards a zoom hack not hair mods.

The topic is not about hair mods.

The policy is simply contradictory.

[ForteNightshade]

As I said before in this thread for us the player there is a distinction between body mods and combat mods but the ToS makes no distinction. It is all equal cheating under the rules. You being a cheater apologist though is funny.

No we are not mischaracterizing anything. He flat out said that they don't know why they are making ults if people are just going to cheat. Solution, put an anti cheat in the game baby

A ToS they don't enforce, and haven't for nearly a decade. I explained already why they won't ever put in DRM. It's simply not worth it to Square Enix. And yes, you are. Yoshida said that in response to a zoom hack in Ultimate. Therefore, the logical assumption would be they might cut Ultimate development not that they're suddenly going to break every single plugin.

To put into perspective what you're asking: Yoshida would essentially have to explain to SE shareholders why losing a substantially amount of money is a good idea. How well do you think that would go over?

The topic is not about hair mods.

The policy is simply contradictory.

Nobody is debating that it's contradictory. What we're saying is that won't change because it's not profitable for SE to implement any sort of DRM. To put it bluntly, programs like ACT have existed since Heavenswards. If they were going to tackle them, it would have happened a long time ago. The reason they've opted for a "don't ask, don't tell" stance is because it directly benefits them.

[Azureskies01]

You do understand that they are putting a substantial amount of money INTO making the content that will eventually be not supported if they don't put an anti cheat in the game...right? Well I guess not right as labor costs in companies aren't one of the highest expenses in companies every year (I'm being sarcastic).

Look it is all against ToS and you trying to say that they wont do it because of their bottom line, while not knowing what their bottom line is (or even that labor costs are expensive) is laughable. Act used to not have cacbot in it, now it does. FFXIV launcher used to not have pluggins, now it does. AM used to not be a thing and the list goes on. It seems as though people can't leave well enough alone and just be happy with act. Nope they gotta take it a step further and further and further and now you have literal cheater apologists on the forums saying (paraphrasing) "it isn't all that bad and the cheats are everywhere plus SE might miss out on that ERP money if they do anything about it so who cares?

Just laughable honestly.