Jobs feel pretty much complete with Dawntrail no?

[HikariKurosawa]

Okay let’s look at some examples
WAR- EW- buff to nascent flash, feller cleave. DT- buff to vengeance, feller cleaver
RDM- EW- slight mana redo another finisher. DT- buff to combo starters, oGCD finisher
Healers- EW- GCD potency upgrade, heal they don’t need. DT- minor new damage attack tied to long CD’s, heal they don’t need
MCH- EW- third short CD high damage CD that interacts with nothing. DT- combo for prior action, 120 second finisher
GNB- EW- two gauge finisher. DT- another finisher but this time it’s a combo
RPR- DT- another button you press in your enshroud window

None of these changes change the core flow of the job, open up new interactions or meaningfully change how the job plays over the course of the fight. I could actually argue the reverse that the only job that didn’t get reworked that got meaningful changes is BLM with paradox as ice paradox filled the empty slot in the ice phase that used to be a messy problem in ShB but even that’s reaching

If that's how you really feel then you have my condolences. I'm personally really appreciative of all the new additions since ShB(even before ShB) and feel like they have built up to borderline perfect and complete job design in dawntrail. Every expansion has refined the jobs and made them feel closer and closer to perfection, but it feels like they've finally arrived at a conclusion. Sure maybe they could keep going further but I think they've done an amazing job and I am just really excited to get my hands on what looks to be nearly perfected job design.

[Supersnow845]

If that's how you really feel then you have my condolences. I'm personally really appreciative of all the new additions since ShB(even before ShB) and feel like they have built up to borderline perfect and complete job design in dawntrail. Every expansion has refined the jobs and made them feel closer and closer to perfection, but it feels like they've finally arrived at a conclusion. Sure maybe they could keep going further but I think they've done an amazing job and I am just really excited to get my hands on what looks to be nearly perfected job design.

If you are confident in your belief in DT perfection why even bother to ask the question when all answers will roll back to “but DT job design is perfect”

This is the same problem we had discussing BLM, I’m not commenting on the actual nature of it but your absolute refusal to see your opinion as anything besides functional fact is not conductive to discussion

What do you hope to get out of this thread if you already believe DT is perfect

[HikariKurosawa]

If you are confident in your belief in DT perfection why even bother to ask the question when all answers will roll back to “but DT job design is perfect”

This is the same problem we had discussing BLM, I’m not commenting on the actual nature of it but your absolute refusal to see your opinion as anything besides functional fact is not conductive to discussion

What do you hope to get out of this thread if you already believe DT is perfect

Why do you think I make posts on a forum to get anything out of it for myself?

It's about discourse and sharing perspective with others. What are you hoping to gain out of engaging with this thread the way you have been? You have been contrarian and unpleasant this entire time as if you have some kind of negative predisposition toward me. I'm just not going to engage with you anymore okay?

It's almost like you think people should only inquire about things they are unsure of, or criticize for the purpose of getting the devs to see what players want out of the game. What's the problem with writing positive things about how you feel the game is going and sharing optimistic perspectives with others about the future of the game's direction? Why should people be so negative and selfish? What is your problem really?

[Asari5]

we are going to keep lvling up it's just up to yoshi p if we will go to 110 or just lvl squish. i am for lvl squishing cause it will let us get all our skills at lvl 50 and help with the heavy difference in kits between lvls

what do you mean exactly? sounds like you wanna make players hit max lvl in ARR, otherwise it wont change anything in termd of getting skills earlier

[Supersnow845]

Why do you think I make posts on a forum to get anything out of it for myself?

It's about discourse and sharing perspective with others. What are you hoping to gain out of engaging with this thread the way you have been? You have been contrarian and unpleasant this entire time as if you have some kind of negative predisposition toward me. I'm just not going to engage with you anymore okay?

You don’t agree with my point so i offer you examples, you don’t refute my examples you just say I’m a negative person and act like my opinion should be pitied then say I’m a negative person

I genuinely have no idea how to interact with you. What do you actually want. You say you want a discussion but you do this to comments that are negative to your point then close our discussion. Do I need to be the one to explain that discussion actually involves back and forth of differing opinions. I don’t know how to offer differing opinions when you just shut everything down

[Musashidon]

what do you mean exactly? sounds like you wanna make players hit max lvl in ARR, otherwise it wont change anything in termd of getting skills earlier

you will need to rephrase your question for me as i am not sure what is being said here.

i will give a couple answers hoping they hit the question though.

1 no max lvl would now be 60 it would just restart the expansion lvling cycle.

2 the idea isnt to give you 100% of the skills ever but with a lvl squish you wouldnt just lose every skill we have now for no reason it would just be put into the lvl we are reverted to with the squish which i would say 50.

[LianaThorne]

Why do you think I make posts on a forum to get anything out of it for myself?

It's about discourse and sharing perspective with others. What are you hoping to gain out of engaging with this thread the way you have been? You have been contrarian and unpleasant this entire time as if you have some kind of negative predisposition toward me. I'm just not going to engage with you anymore okay?

It's almost like you think people should only inquire about things they are unsure of, or criticize for the purpose of getting the devs to see what players want out of the game. What's the problem with writing positive things about how you feel the game is going and sharing optimistic perspectives with others about the future of the game's direction? Why should people be so negative and selfish? What is your problem really?

Public forum. Just as you can post what you want, so too can everyone else. Even to an annoying degree with the amount of troll threads we get. If you aren't on board with people disagreeing with you, peace and love, it might be best to consider whether or not sharing your thoughts in a place where people can comment on it is the best idea.

[Rithy255]

You don’t agree with my point so i offer you examples, you don’t refute my examples you just say I’m a negative person and act like my opinion should be pitied then say I’m a negative person

I genuinely have no idea how to interact with you. What do you actually want. You say you want a discussion but you do this to comments that are negative to your point then close our discussion. Do I need to be the one to explain that discussion actually involves back and forth of differing opinions. I don’t know how to offer differing opinions when you just shut everything down

You can't interact with them that's the point, unless you agree with pretty much everything they say. I'm pretty sure the only perspective they want to see is things affirming what they like about the game. Trust me I've tried to offer how I see things in a calm manner but it will never get you anywhere.

I can understand enjoying the game I do, but a lot job complaints are valid... I don't think they would have mentioned it before, I think the Devs are somewhat aware that the Design needs some sort of changing otherwise 8.0 wouldn't have been mentioned.

Keep in mind I want the game to be enjoyable to new players, this is why I think low skill floor is fine, but it's also fine to want a bit more "complexity" and uniqueness in mastering a job.

[OdinelStarrei]

Why do you think I make posts on a forum to get anything out of it for myself?

It's about discourse and sharing perspective with others. What are you hoping to gain out of engaging with this thread the way you have been? You have been contrarian and unpleasant this entire time as if you have some kind of negative predisposition toward me. I'm just not going to engage with you anymore okay?

It's almost like you think people should only inquire about things they are unsure of, or criticize for the purpose of getting the devs to see what players want out of the game. What's the problem with writing positive things about how you feel the game is going and sharing optimistic perspectives with others about the future of the game's direction? Why should people be so negative and selfish? What is your problem really?

Do you read your OWN posts before you send them? Do you not see how you talk to other people?

"your complaints have no basis in reality"
"if you don't like it, that's too bad"
"Project harder lol"
"You're mad because you cant flex over the plebs anymore"
"Listening to you crybabies is tiring lol."

You'll have to forgive me for not having compassion toward people who think it is worth throwing a fit over the developers choosing to change the game in a way they and I think is positive. You'll adapt to the changes and likely have more fun playing them too because the job will flow better and have more consistent moments of power. You had your fun already, time to move on.

If you think I am the one being pretentious that's fine. You're entitled to your own perspective. Personally I think it is pretentious to act like adapting to clunk is complex, nuanced, or elegant. Sorry for your loss, but the world moves forward.

Sure, I just don't think anyone should care about preserving that engagement with the game if it comes at the cost of everyone else feeling suboptimal. You people need to get a life basically.

You wrote this! You were never interested in having polite discourse, you were interested in kicking people who weren't enjoying things, because all you do is rag on people who are saying "yeah, not the biggest fan of *insert change here*, here's my feedback"

I'm not even like, arguing against your points or anything. I'm a tank/healer main, so I already know my opinions don't matter. I just think you're mean.

Isn't there some level of dissonance here?

[Jeeqbit]

What else can they add aside from polishing up the animations or upgrading existing abilities like fire 3 into fire 4 and adding fire 5 if I use black mage as an example.

Well if we use, say, Warrior for example, they can slowly add to the Primal Rend combo like with Blade of Faith on Paladin.

But you're right it often has just been animation/upgrades since the uprade system was added and probably will continue to be. But sometimes the trait upgrades do make the job a bit different or more busy.

Maybe 8.0 will just be potency upgrades and final revisions to what we get in dawntrail

No, I think they want to make it feel like you're progressing at each level. As long as we have new levels we'll have new actions.

However, it remains in question if we will have more levels because Yoshi-P has mentioned how they will need to ponder what to do about the future with how high our level has got and I think he also mentioned horizontal progression before. That doesn't mean he'll go for it, but I think it is part of pondering what to do now and I think we as players are starting to ponder it as well.

It feels to me like if they just keep piling on new actions and every expansion after dawntrail that things are going to be too busy and it's just like, a waste of development budget?

Well that's new. Most people here keep saying that the combat system has got simpler and less busy and you see it a different way. I personally think it used to be busy in a different way (tracking things) while now it's more busy in the sense of pressing OGCDs but not necessarily difficult. And some jobs remain heavy in the area of tracking things but I am not so sure this will last into Dawntrail.