Astrologian: what is your understanding about it?

[Aravell]

Since you want to know why people even liked the HW/SB cards, I'll share my perspective.

First off, I don't care about damage, never have, what I care about is whether or not I can make an impact in the group. I don't remember the perfect runs where I get 2 melee/1 range cards every 2 mins and every Sleeve Draw is a Lord, I do remember the runs where I enhanced a Bole and saved the tank that screwed up their CD rotation. Cards being all damage simply lacks immediately obvious impact, you maybe end the fight about a minute faster if you have a perfect run, but that's not as immediately obvious of an impact as, say, dropping an enhanced Ewer on your cohealer that just raised and is starving for resources.

Another point is that I like having the randomness of what I'll Draw and being given the tools to manipulate my way to the goal I want. I enjoyed that HW/SB AST gave me a goal (AoE Balance) and gave me the tools (Royal Road, Spread, Redraw, Sleeve Draw) to work towards that. I view ShB/EW cards as being given the victory (a damage increase) by default, you didn't work for it, you didn't fight for it, it's just handed to you. I loved manipulating the cards to reach my preferred outcome while also thinking about it every step of the way and what I would do for the next card. For current AST, part of the thought process is entirely gone, I only need to briefly think about alignment with job damage profiles, I do not need to think about what I'm going to be doing to get to the next payload because I know I'm being handed it for free every 2 minutes.

I know HW/SB cards wouldn't work in the current game because some of their effects are already rendered obsolete (Spire, Ewer) and some are basically not needed (Bole, Arrow), but that doesn't mean that every card HAS to be just a flat damage increase. Separating Draw into offensive and defensive buffs is an option. Cutting out most of our pointless heal buttons and giving us more ways to work with the card system to get to our preferred goal (whether it be AoE Balance or an Enhanced Bole for the really bad tank) is also an option. The dev team could be creative, but my problem with that is they just aren't.

[Kissune]

Since you want to know why people even liked the HW/SB cards, I'll share my perspective.

First off, I don't care about damage, never have, what I care about is whether or not I can make an impact in the group. I don't remember the perfect runs where I get 2 melee/1 range cards every 2 mins and every Sleeve Draw is a Lord, I do remember the runs where I enhanced a Bole and saved the tank that screwed up their CD rotation. Cards being all damage simply lacks immediately obvious impact, you maybe end the fight about a minute faster if you have a perfect run, but that's not as immediately obvious of an impact as, say, dropping an enhanced Ewer on your cohealer that just raised and is starving for resources.

Another point is that I like having the randomness of what I'll Draw and being given the tools to manipulate my way to the goal I want. I enjoyed that HW/SB AST gave me a goal (AoE Balance) and gave me the tools (Royal Road, Spread, Redraw, Sleeve Draw) to work towards that. I view ShB/EW cards as being given the victory (a damage increase) by default, you didn't work for it, you didn't fight for it, it's just handed to you. I loved manipulating the cards to reach my preferred outcome while also thinking about it every step of the way and what I would do for the next card. For current AST, part of the thought process is entirely gone, I only need to briefly think about alignment with job damage profiles, I do not need to think about what I'm going to be doing to get to the next payload because I know I'm being handed it for free every 2 minutes.

I know HW/SB cards wouldn't work in the current game because some of their effects are already rendered obsolete (Spire, Ewer) and some are basically not needed (Bole, Arrow), but that doesn't mean that every card HAS to be just a flat damage increase. Separating Draw into offensive and defensive buffs is an option. Cutting out most of our pointless heal buttons and giving us more ways to work with the card system to get to our preferred goal (whether it be AoE Balance or an Enhanced Bole for the really bad tank) is also an option. The dev team could be creative, but my problem with that is they just aren't.

At this point all of us are just arguing for our preferred style and it's kinda exhausting. I'm never going to like stormblood cards for the reasons I laid out, I disagree heavily on the perspective of how SB cards could even function in current FF purely due to how fights and dps checks are designed, but I can't convince people to prefer shb/ew cards. All we need to agree on is that DT cards are not the 'happy medium' between both that 'pleases everyone' and that square enix needs to take it back to the drawing board and figure out what works in their game while keeping the identity of a fortune teller who deals with fate, whatever we may think it is. No RNG was never the solution, no matter which side of the fence you were on.

If stormblood cards or a modernized system was added to the game, I wouldn't like it, but I'd still probably enjoy the gameplay of AST over another healer. Just as how I'm sure you guys still play current AST and enjoy it more than other classes. If anything the perfect solution would be something like WoW specs to allow for different playstyles (maybe you can choose from a different set of decks or even assemble your own? I'm coping now.) but that's definitely an 8.0 thing or probably even further. If at all, which I doubt.

[ArtemisSeraphin]

All we need to agree on is that DT cards are not the 'happy medium' between both that 'pleases everyone' and that square enix needs to take it back to the drawing board and figure out what works in their game while keeping the identity of a fortune teller who deals with fate, whatever we may think it is. No RNG was never the solution, no matter which side of the fence you were on.

If stormblood cards or a modernized system was added to the game, I wouldn't like it, but I'd still probably enjoy the gameplay of AST over another healer. Just as how I'm sure you guys still play current AST and enjoy it more than other classes.

100%. ShB/EW AST still had RNG. It still meant making decisions. It still offered the fast-paced play style (Hey, how do you summon a miqo'te AST player? You say, "sps sps sps sps sps sps") & the RNG kept things interesting. It still aligned w the lore the game had spent several expacs fleshing out. It's not my preferred iteration, but it was still recognizably AST. I still prefer it over WHM, SCH, & SGE by a LOT.

And it's not just the cards that I love abt AST. I love having to learn the timing of fights so that my Earthly Star detonates just after a raid-wide w/o me having to detonate it myself; my horoscope goes off at just the right time, macrocosmos goes off at just the right time. I love the pre-planning of heals & how that allows me to be more reactive to the cards RNG. I love the tiny optimizations AST lets you make. I love seeing how long I can go w/o using a GCD heal.

(all of these optimizations, mind you, that are entirely optional and not at all necessary in regular content!)

I do not see myself enjoying DT AST as it stands right now. Because it's not AST--there is nothing recognizably AST in the play style. It's the worst parts of WHM & the worst parts of SCH, but it sparkles & will be easy to play, so I guess that's what really matters.

For the people saying "wait and see" to decide if I actually like it instead of basing it on the preview, waiting and seeing won't help. We waited to see with SHB. We Waited to see with EW. 7.0 is too late for them to consider player feedback and make changes. What we get in 7.0 is most likely what we will be stuck with until 8.0. The best time to speak up was a long time ago, the second-best time is NOW.

I don't know what the happy medium is of the two variants of AST. But if it doesn't have a fast-paced play style, an element of RNG, and a high skill ceiling, it is not AST.

[Aravell]

At this point all of us are just arguing for our preferred style and it's kinda exhausting. I'm never going to like stormblood cards for the reasons I laid out, I disagree heavily on the perspective of how SB cards could even function in current FF purely due to how fights and dps checks are designed, but I can't convince people to prefer shb/ew cards. All we need to agree on is that DT cards are not the 'happy medium' between both that 'pleases everyone' and that square enix needs to take it back to the drawing board and figure out what works in their game while keeping the identity of a fortune teller who deals with fate, whatever we may think it is. No RNG was never the solution, no matter which side of the fence you were on.

If stormblood cards or a modernized system was added to the game, I wouldn't like it, but I'd still probably enjoy the gameplay of AST over another healer. Just as how I'm sure you guys still play current AST and enjoy it more than other classes. If anything the perfect solution would be something like WoW specs to allow for different playstyles (maybe you can choose from a different set of decks or even assemble your own? I'm coping now.) but that's definitely an 8.0 thing or probably even further. If at all, which I doubt.

Huh? I'm not even trying to argue or convince you, you said you don't get why people would like HW/SB cards, so I listed out why I liked those cards and don't like ShB/EW cards. I didn't say you have to like old cards, we can disagree, it's ok.

You're right about DT cards though, it's not designed for either of us.

[Kissune]

Huh? I'm not even trying to argue or convince you, you said you don't get why people would like HW/SB cards, so I listed out why I liked those cards and don't like ShB/EW cards. I didn't say you have to like old cards, we can disagree, it's ok.

You're right about DT cards though, it's not designed for either of us.

Sorry, I did not mean to quote reply you to imply that. It was more stated at the other person here, and in general. These changes have just put me in a bad and tired mood, and I'm still mulling over what I even want to do. At this point it's hard to muster up any excitement for dawntrail at all. Especially seeing people parade around their joy at the death of my main, knowing that I'll have to see these people talking about how much they love new AST and how it totally had so many problems with the job that they ran into in their once a day trials roulette bc none of them did anything harder than an alliance raid. I feel for pre-EW summoner mains so badly right now. Having my job be blatantly removed and people talking about how happy they are that we were turned into a white mage clone while actively trying to delude themselves into thinking that somehow we were given 'more choice' and 'more interesting options' is just... bleh.

I don't understand how people can think these cards are in any way more interesting or fun or unique than EW cards without major critical thinking issues. Getting the same set of 4 cards every time and knowing exactly what they are and when to use them is not what I played AST for. I liked the busyness, the set-up and release style of healing, the on-the-fly thinking and the feeling of control as I piloted cards. Now I just have... the healing. I guess. Which won't even matter with how bloated the toolkit is now. It just sucks. I was expecting DT to make the job worse, not remove it entirely.

8.0 can't come soon enough, I guess, but I fail to see how square enix can 'restore identity to the jobs' when they don't seem to know what the identity is. Is it just white mage for people who like sparkles instead of flowers? That's all it seems to be.

[Zolvolt]

Especially seeing people parade around their joy at the death of my main, knowing that I'll have to see these people talking about how much they love new AST and how it totally had so many problems with the job that they ran into in their once a day trials roulette bc none of them did anything harder than an alliance raid.

Saying stuff like this is just trying to invalidate that other people playing Ast see these problems with it. People happy about the changes (myself included) have played astro at a high level for a long time. Trying to diminish people like my experiences by saying we can't possibly think that the changes are good unless we don't do hard content is not really fair. I'd almost argue that playing ast at a high level should make it more obvious to you that these problems existed and needed to be addressed, but saying that isn't going to make you feel any better about things.

I don't understand how people can think these cards are in any way more interesting or fun or unique than EW cards without major critical thinking issues. Getting the same set of 4 cards every time and knowing exactly what they are and when to use them is not what I played AST for. I liked the busyness, the set-up and release style of healing, the on-the-fly thinking and the feeling of control as I piloted cards. Now I just have... the healing. I guess. Which won't even matter with how bloated the toolkit is now. It just sucks. I was expecting DT to make the job worse, not remove it entirely.

When you say stuff like this, It just tells me that something isn't clicking with you. I don't know if its that you don't understand the changes, or you are only looking at one aspect of changes. It almost feels to me that you are completely disregarding the card system existing in it's new state because you only like the old system? I'm not even sure. When you say you only have the healing left it just tells me you are ignoring a fully implemented card system. Idk your complaints about it makes me feel like a piece of the puzzle didn't make it into your puzzle box in terms of the ast changes. I also wonder if therse some sort of illusion in the current form of ast that makes you feel it is "on the fly" Ast cards are always the same right. They happen at the same time every single time in EW. There is a very small difference in who you give the cards to, right? And it's not like your players are randomly changing. you always know "if this card is melee it goes to x. if it is ranged it goes to y" When people say thats the critical thinking and on the fly they want I just can't take that seriously. It's so thoughtless.

[Kissune]

Saying stuff like this is just trying to invalidate that other people playing Ast see these problems with it. People happy about the changes (myself included) have played astro at a high level for a long time. Trying to diminish people like my experiences by saying we can't possibly think that the changes are good unless we don't do hard content is not really fair. I'd almost argue that playing ast at a high level should make it more obvious to you that these problems existed and needed to be addressed, but saying that isn't going to make you feel any better about things.

There were problems, sure. But the solution to them was never completely stripping the job of any semblance of its identity. I played this class at the high level and loved it. Took it into every ultimate, took it into every savage I could, as often as I could. Ran criterion with it too. And you know why? Because no matter what the content was, AST kept me engaged. It kept me awake, it kept me constantly looking up from my bar at my gauge and then quickly scanning the card, processing the info, finding the right target, and putting it where it needs to go. I could draw and decide to redraw or play a card in the same weave window while doing heavy movement mechanics. And that was fun for me. If people wanted a slow, static, and completely predictable healer, scholar was right there. White mage was right there. Sage was right there. Astrologian was just as much for the people who wanted fast paced, highly tactical and skill responsive gameplay as it was for the people who just went 'ooh, stars pretty!' But clearly aesthetics are more important than gameplay, and so rather than just telling people who didn't like the RNG to pick one of the three other healers, dozens of people have to lose a playstyle they can't get anywhere else in favour of having 4 healers with mere superficial differences between them.

When you say stuff like this, It just tells me that something isn't clicking with you. I don't know if its that you don't understand the changes, or you are only looking at one aspect of changes. It almost feels to me that you are completely disregarding the card system existing in it's new state because you only like the old system? I'm not even sure. When you say you only have the healing left it just tells me you are ignoring a fully implemented card system. Idk your complaints about it makes me feel like a piece of the puzzle didn't make it into your puzzle box in terms of the ast changes. I also wonder if therse some sort of illusion in the current form of ast that makes you feel it is "on the fly" Ast cards are always the same right. They happen at the same time every single time in EW. There is a very small difference in who you give the cards to, right? And it's not like your players are randomly changing. you always know "if this card is melee it goes to x. if it is ranged it goes to y" When people say thats the critical thinking and on the fly they want I just can't take that seriously. It's so thoughtless.

When you say stuff like this it tells me you can't actually see the DT cards for what they are. Let me break it down. You press draw on a 60s CD. You do not drift it, you do not bank it, you press it at the same time, every time, for the rest of the fight. Just like aetherflow. When you press it, you are given set A of cards. The effects aren't revealed yet, but we know it will be one offensive, one defensive, and one curative. All single target. You get a dps buff of some kind, a heal of some kind, and a mitigation of some kind. You also draw lord of crowns. 60s later, you press the button again, and you get set B. You get the same thing. One offensive, one defensive, one curative. You also draw lady of crowns.

AST cards currently do not happen 'all at the same time'. Not only is there individual variance in the burst window with the possibility of redraw, astrodyne having different times it needs to be pressed, and reacting on the fly to if you need to play for a seal, or for a particular card depending on what you already drew. Is it the most interesting system in the world? No! I wouldn't have minded if the cards were spiced up a bit over flat% damage, but the core of it still required you to think about the cards and not mindlessly place them if you wanted to optimize. You do not know 'if card is melee it goes to x', if it is ranged it goes to 'y'. Some classes frontloaded their burst, so the third card in your burst might be less effective as it misses the most damaging skills. It was a small difference for fucking up, yeah, but at least it was actually there. At least I had optimization to work towards. Now? Since there's only two dps cards period, and they will always happen in the exact same order, they will go to the same two people, at the same time, every time. There is no adaptation, there is no processing it, there is no decision making, it's just cut and dry. As for the healing and mitigation cards? Fuck, might as well have given us a fourth ED charge and a third intersection charge bc that's basically all they are. They're not interesting if there's no working with what you get, there's no manipulating draws or trying for something else. You get your hand, it's the same hand every time, you factor it into your mit/healplan just like you would any old shield or heal, and you don't even think about it. It's like aetherflow, but as least Scholars have the option of optimizing healing out of their plan in exchange for a small damage gain. We don't even have that. We just have a couple buffs that are a single weave tax in burst that can be entirely macro'd since there's no more reacting to draws, just set card A to play on person A, card B to play on person B, and go back to spamming malefic like a good little white mage.

We also get a lovely new single target heal that will either be thrown out, not played, or have as much thought put into it as summoners do to rekindle. You put the mit card on the tank if they get busted, otherwise you throw it on them for autos. Or use exaltation, or CI, or whatever. Or do nothing. It's all the same thing. You get lady of crowns, which is exactly as useful as it was in EW.

I don't know why you played AST if not for the RNG, apm, or the on-the-fly thinking. If you're just here for the aesthetics, cool. If you idk, find star to be the pinnacle of healing design, I get that, but the job deserved better than being reduced to it. Whatever it is, I think you don't actually understand what this job did. I find it hard to believe you did any kind of hard content, and if so, why didn't you just play white mage if you hated RNG and high APM so much?

[Zolvolt]

Where are you getting the idea that ast lost it's identity? It hasn't. The ast identity is getting double-downed on. Theres more cards to play. You are playing more cards then ever before. Idk how else to say it. The card class is getting more cards to play then every before. You say ast is going to be slow now when the APM is only lower by one action per minute. ONE action per minute is still faster than other jobs. I am struggling to get through your post because anytime you don't like something you act like the reason behind it's change is "game play doesn't matter. ooh stars pretty" Can you get serious please? Every single one of the changes was for gameplay reasons. Please stop pretending that isn't the case. "dozens of people lose their playstyle" Hello welcome to mmo's. All long-time players have lost the playstyle we used to have in previous expansions. If you play an mmo that is guarenteed, 100%, going to happen to you. I'm sorry if this is your first time, but you're taking it a little bit too hard.

I'm sorry I can't get past this idea that you think you have to think about the cards in any capacity. One is for melee. one is for ranged. It's not rocket science, it's not tactical, you draw a card, you hold it for burst if you can without losing a charge. you use it during burst. It's really, really thoughtless. You don't manipulate the cards at all like in the past, which was the only thinking you ever had to do about it. But redraw, which you don't even use during the burst window, is all that was left of card manipulation in EW.

Yeah so you don't like healing and mitigation tools, then you should probably go play a dps class.It's a bit insane you're complaining that astro, a healer, is getting healing/mit cards. "we're bloated in the final part of the expansions" Congratulations, you won't be for the first two tiers. Even in the final tier of savage you still used ALL of your orgcd's. You never just didn't use them. Yeah I just see you complaining that you're losing dps tools. You only like scholar's AF because of energy drain, which is it's own problem entirely. And then you're saying ast is like whm, because it spams malefic. Thatg is a "every healer problem" not an ast turning into whm problem. Not to mention that the malefic spam 1.5s gcd was an astro exclusive in shb. Every other healer was homogenized to astro.

So heres the deal. You don't like healing. You chalk every healing tool up to never being used. You have disillusioned yourself into thinking astro requires any thinking at all on behalf of the cards. Which isn't the case. It's literally an A or B decision. You have convinced yourself that Astro is losing it's high APM which it's not and you have devolved into the classic "well you don't agree with me so you clearly did not do any hard content" which is honestly a poor man's argument. Please do better.

[AmiableApkallu]

Where are you getting the idea that ast lost it's identity? It hasn't. The ast identity is getting double-downed on. Theres more cards to play. You are playing more cards then ever before. Idk how else to say it. The card class is getting more cards to play then every before.

I'm afraid that's not the AST identity. Copying and pasting from another comment...

AST is about confronting what fate would seem to have in store for you, and finding ways to overcome that fate. The gameplay that embodied that was the randomness of the cards you drew, much like in many card games where you shuffle a deck of cards and proceed to draw cards from the top of it -- you don't know what you'll get next.

Now, with AST, it would seem that there is no randomness. You know exactly what you'll draw and when you'll draw it. There is no sense of learning what fate has in store for you. There is sense of having to overcome anything.

The job might still have things called cards, but they've lost their connection to what it actually means to draw a card from a deck.

[Zolvolt]

It doesn't matter if RNG is present or not for AST. It's a card class, not an RNG class. I'm not saying that as opinion. If RNG was the defining fact of the class it wouldn't be removed. The only thing that will strip astro of it's identity is if the cards and buffing are gone.

Even the job guide, if you really want to go into, says that reading the stars is how astro's are able to use their magic. It doesn't say anything about astro's relying on randomness to do anything. They are able to do it by attuning to the constellations. They draw the card to attune to that constellations. It's doesn't matter if the card is random or not.