Making jobs simpler is a mistake, let players fail.

[AmiableApkallu]

There will always be a most efficient pick, that will never change as long as there's numerical differences. I'd rather they focus on designing the jobs to be fun rather than wasting time trying to kill a meta.

I think the P8S-on-release situation is instructive here. SE wanted to set a tight enrage. They can't do that, and support all jobs and comps being viable, unless they make it so that the differences are sufficiently small.

[Sqwall]

I think the P8S-on-release situation is instructive here. SE wanted to set a tight enrage. They can't do that, and support all jobs and comps being viable, unless they make it so that the differences are sufficiently small.

Like I said...I don't think we can have it both ways. P8s is a good example of the content being 1% out of balance with the jobs. It was easier to change the boss HP...rather then upset job balance.

To that I argue that streamers and day one enthusiast pressured SE to make the change....SE could have just held their ground and let them get better gear on week 2 re-clears rather then bend the knee. P8s was....it was a rough fight all around.

SE should stop giving clout to streamers "as free marketing" and focus more on sticking to their decisions on savage fight design. When you have streamers screaming and whining "job balance this" "job balance that" "Just look at the logs!"....you start to see SE bending the knee so that can keep the money machine moving correctly. Give them what they want...and things will calm down.

If I was in Yoshi P's shoes...I would not invite a single streamer to the media tour. I bet some of those streamers give him so much heartburn because of the audience they have and influence they give.

Not everything should be completed on day 1 because a streamer says so.

[Supersnow845]

Like I said...I don't think we can have it both ways. P8s is a good example of the content being 1% out of balance with the jobs. It was easier to change the boss HP...rather then upset job balance.

To that I argue that streamers and day one enthusiast pressured SE to make the change....SE could have just held their ground and let them get better gear on week 2 re-clears rather then bend the knee. P8s was....it was a rough fight all around.

SE should stop giving clout to streamers "as free marketing" and focus more on sticking to their decisions on savage fight design. P10s was a wall for most...and they didn't change anything about that fight.

Not everything should be completed on day 1.

Except if their maths is bad enough that they allowed P8S to happen why should we put any faith in their balance decisions going forward given they have over homogenised the jobs and still it lead to this which wasn’t a problem in ShB or SB and then hid it in 12 but just not giving Athena any sort of meaningful DPS check at all

The jobs have become more homogenised and the balance has become worse, surely even you can see that ShB was better for balance

[Sqwall]

Except if their maths is bad enough that they allowed P8S to happen why should we put any faith in their balance decisions going forward given they have over homogenised the jobs and still it lead to this which wasn’t a problem in ShB or SB and then hid it in 12 but just not giving Athena any sort of meaningful DPS check at all

The jobs have become more homogenised and the balance has become worse, surely even you can see that ShB was better for balance

Two points. Just because a boss had to much health on Day 1 clears...doesn't mean the game is broken. I took from it that the fight wasn't meant to be completed DAY 1! I looked at it as...man...I'm going to need better gear to complete this fight. Like the days of old when you needed a certain amount of HP or DEF to be a strong enough tank to survive. Math has nothing to do with....I saw it as a challenge.

It was the community that threw up there arms and started complaining that the enrage is to tight....DAY 1. Ridiculous. If I was the designer of that fight I would have stayed silent, or just said "Yes, it's a very hard fight and you will need to play perfectly if you want to clear day 1, and you will need to put together a party that needs to playing at an incredibly high level to maybe even achieve it day 1....or...there's always next week after you get more gear."

They learned their lesson with P10s....that fight was a monster of a wall.

Second Point. SHB was more balanced yes job wise yes....but think of all the issues and changes that culminated from SHB before and after it's release.

SMN - Reworked after
MNK - Reworked during and after
AST - Reworked before and no longer pure barrier
PLD - Reworked during and after
DRK - Reworked before
MCH - Reworked before
2 min meta adopted as way of designing jobs and endgame content.
etc etc

The list goes on.

I see Endwalker as an inflection point of squashing the job design of old from ARR-SB...and as a reset point. It's going to take years to rebuild...Endwalker is just the new beginning imo.

I'm patient....i'll continue to play the game, and see the changes as they come for years to come.

WoW had the same issues years ago...everything started to feel "samey"...but nothing ever felt like vanilla after 10 years. Because the game evolves and changes.

Endwalker in my eyes is the first new step into a new reset in job design...make everything even...then start to expand little by little.

[Aravell]

Two points. Just because a boss had to much health on Day 1 clears...doesn't mean the game is broken. I took from it that the fight wasn't meant to be completed DAY 1! I looked at it as...man...I'm going to need better gear to complete this fight. Like the days of old when you needed a certain amount of HP or DEF to be a strong enough tank to survive. Math has nothing to do with....I saw it as a challenge.

It was the community that threw up there arms and started complaining that the enrage is to tight....DAY 1. Ridiculous. If I was the designer of that fight I would have stayed silent, or just said "Yes, it's a very hard fight and you will need to play perfectly if you want to clear day 1, and you will need to put together a party that needs to playing at an incredibly high level to maybe even achieve it day 1....or...there's always next week after you get more gear."

They learned their lesson with P10s....that fight was a monster of a wall.

I think the point is that P8S was only tight with certain comps, which means balance was really bad even with all the homogenisation of jobs for the sake of balance.

[Sqwall]

I think the point is that P8S was only tight with certain comps, which means balance was really bad even with all the homogenisation of jobs for the sake of balance.

I wouldn't call balance "really bad" if it's a 1% failure enrage. If it was like like 10% or 15%....no shot...not even with reclears and better gear....then there is a clear problem.

Changing to a job that does slightly more damage...well obviously that's going to make a difference...change RDM to BLM...then yeah that's going to change things.

You want to clear day 1....you are going to have to except the fact that you WILL need to play to jobs strengths. This is why current WAR does everything the best as they say.

People complain....things change....Homogenization is the communities fault simply by demanding "WAR needs more DPS! ZOMG". They got what they asked for. SE needs to stop caving. Unless their is a blatant issue in balance.

[Aravell]

I wouldn't call balance "really bad" if it's a 1% failure enrage. If it was like like 10% or 15%....no shot...not even with reclears and better gear....then there is a clear problem.

Changing to a job that does slightly more damage...well obviously that's going to make a difference...change RDM to BLM...then yeah that's going to change things.

You want to clear day 1....you are going to have to except the fact that you WILL need to play to jobs strengths. This is why current WAR does everything the best as they say.

People complain....things change....Homogenization is the communities fault simply by demanding "WAR needs more DPS! ZOMG". They got what they asked for. SE needs to stop caving. Unless their is a blatant issue in balance.

You're not making a sensible argument here. You say that balance is better now and every job is viable because they changed the jobs, but when shown an example of balance being bad, you say that people should change to another job in order to clear if their job is weak? But I thought you said every job is made viable now, why do people still have to change to another job to clear?

What is your argument anyway?

[vetch]

I think the P8S-on-release situation is instructive here. SE wanted to set a tight enrage. They can't do that, and support all jobs and comps being viable, unless they make it so that the differences are sufficiently small.

Then they should give up their desire to have tight enrages. It's an ill-considered aim with bad knock-on effects. Having the DPS checks be so tight that W1 players are struggling against them adds a smidgeon of tension for 0.01% of the playerbase for a week while turbo-fucking job and encounter design for everyone for years.