If you could, what order would you set tanks in terms of damage?

[Rithy255]

Don't forget the regen from Sacred Soil. It's an additional effect we didn't expect nor asked for.

As for PLD's sustain, just remove all passive healing from their offensive spells, Holy Sheltron and Intervention, give Convalescence effect to Holy Sheltron, then finally, add a trait to Clemency to heal more the lower the target's HP is. I didn't add Divine Veil as the potency isn't that much plus it is not spammable.

That way, PLDs who solo will have to force themselves to drop dpsing to sustain themselves while giving actual healers an easier time topping them off with the Convalescence effect.

Or Just hear me out... Don't remove sustain from holy sheltron.

I'm all for removing healing on magic attacks, but holy sheltrons healing effect is fine as it is. Having additional effects such as sustain tied to a mitigation gives it multi purpose and doesn't need to take up lots of space.

Small amount of self sustain isn't a excuse of why healer feels horrible to play, I also like healing tied to Holy sheltron/intervention.

[rawker]

In terms of tank healing, PLD is right next to WAR. Part of the what makes PLD healing very strong is being able to hold oath to cast Holy Sheltron, and Intervention back to back. that's 2000p healing over 24s. And you can get 100 oath ~50s. People just don't like Clemency because it's on the GCD.

[GoatOfWar]

In terms of tank healing, PLD is right next to WAR. Part of the what makes PLD healing very strong is being able to hold oath to cast Holy Sheltron, and Intervention back to back. that's 2000p healing over 24s. And you can get 100 oath ~50s. People just don't like Clemency because it's on the GCD.

PLD should not have it's dps taxed as much as WAR tbh.
PLD has genuine weaknesses whereas WAR doesn't. PLD has the worst invuln in the game and 2 of it's utilities; PoA and Clemency, are on GCD.
Whereas everything on WAR is ogcd. War should confidently rank at the bottom.
If it's going to have the best invuln, the best partywide, Kardia on steroids, and the highest sustain by a landslide, it SHOULD have the lowest dps.

The big question though, is by how much?
I think tank dps should go..

GNB>DRK>PLD>WAR

The difference between the highest and lowest dps tanks being around 5-6%.
I think PLD has room to be the highest dps tank in melee downtime fights, to keep things interesting.

[rawker]

I just want to tone PLD healing a bit. Clemency is very flexible and worth sacrificing a gcd.

[Oizen]

Or Just hear me out... Don't remove sustain from holy sheltron.

I'm all for removing healing on magic attacks, but holy sheltrons healing effect is fine as it is. Having additional effects such as sustain tied to a mitigation gives it multi purpose and doesn't need to take up lots of space.

Small amount of self sustain isn't a excuse of why healer feels horrible to play, I also like healing tied to Holy sheltron/intervention.

To be honest selfish tank sustain isn't as big of an issue as tank party sustain.

[Rithy255]

To be honest selfish tank sustain isn't as big of an issue as tank party sustain.

I'm personally fine with Veil, Shake it off Did not need a regen, Either way AOE party sustain is something that should be very limited, at least if i think DNC/RPR can have some aoe sustain then its fine for tanks to have some just not to the levels of shake it off (like seriously its a better medica 2 with shields that's ogcd).

Single target abilities like Intervention, Aurora Ect. I'm also Ok with aslong as it's farily balanced, Nascent flash takes the cake... why does it have 3200 potency of healing (1600 split) and why isn't this seen as a issue...?

[Supersnow845]

I'm personally fine with Veil, Shake it off Did not need a regen, Either way AOE party sustain is something that should be very limited, at least if i think DNC/RPR can have some aoe sustain then its fine for tanks to have some just not to the levels of shake it off (like seriously its a better medica 2 with shields that's ogcd).

Single target abilities like Intervention, Aurora Ect. I'm also Ok with aslong as it's farily balanced, Nascent flash takes the cake... why does it have 3200 potency of healing (1600 split) and why isn't this seen as a issue...?

Veil doesn’t need the heal either considering in 90% of circumstances the shield’s are already better than the magic mitigations and PLD gets passage

[Lyth]

The issue with 'Additional Effect: Heal/Regen' is that these aren't driven by player decisions. There comes a point where you might as well have jobs gain a passive trait where they regenerate health over time regardless of what you do.

Tying these effects to mitigation moves makes even less sense because you're pressing the button before the damage goes out. So now you've got an integrated top-off before, and then a regen to automatically clean up any damage that you received. At that point, do you really need a health bar?

It's fine for other roles to play a part in sustain, but it needs to tie back into conscious decision-making. If you want to use WAR as an example, a simple way of doing this would be to remove all existing heal/regen effects and instead replace it with a singular heal on Inner Chaos/Chaotic Cyclone that scales inversely to your current HP. Then perhaps allow any 'overheal' that you generate go into temporary HP, and let Nascent Flash split some of that effect with your teammate when active. Perhaps if Intervention mitigates more than a set percentage of a teammate's HP, you gain a free Clemency cast, and using Clemency with Divine Veil active lets you heal neighboring teammates. You don't necessarily have to implement any of these, but the point is that it should be deliberate and thought out rather than automatic.

[Rithy255]

Veil doesn’t need the heal either considering in 90% of circumstances the shield’s are already better than the magic mitigations and PLD gets passage

Actually the Heal is nice for situations where a raid wide goes out and another one is going out in 30s. Without the heal, The heal is nice and fits Paladin as a job in general. I found myself being able to use the Heal while the barriers would still get their useage if I timed things correctly which I actually like.

I'd wager a different Opinion, Magic mitigations are generally better then the raw shielding effects as its becoming more common that theirs multi hit situations, this is where mitigation becomes more effective, Theirs not a lot of examples of physical damage in important fights so the fact that it's magic shouldn't matter for arguments sake (although i think it should simply be changed to mitigating both for more consistency).

Passage is unreliable, anything that requires clock spots, partner pairs certain stacking groups ect. It becomes useless, it's main use is for stacks, it's very hard to consider passage a proper raid wide when in more then half the raid wide situations it becomes something you can't really use anyway. I'm actually Not a massive fan of Passage but I get why people like it, it's fine I just wish for Divine veil to not be nerfed because of it's existence (which it already is cuz warriors Shake it off is way better, but then again i think that skill is too good as it is).

[Supersnow845]

Actually the Heal is nice for situations where a raid wide goes out and another one is going out in 30s. Without the heal, The heal is nice and fits Paladin as a job in general. I found myself being able to use the Heal while the barriers would still get their useage if I timed things correctly which I actually like.

I'd wager a different Opinion, Magic mitigations are generally better then the raw shielding effects as its becoming more common that theirs multi hit situations, this is where mitigation becomes more effective, Theirs not a lot of examples of physical damage in important fights so the fact that it's magic shouldn't matter for arguments sake (although i think it should simply be changed to mitigating both for more consistency).

Passage is unreliable, anything that requires clock spots, partner pairs certain stacking groups ect. It becomes useless, it's main use is for stacks, it's very hard to consider passage a proper raid wide when in more then half the raid wide situations it becomes something you can't really use anyway. I'm actually Not a massive fan of Passage but I get why people like it, it's fine I just wish for Divine veil to not be nerfed because of it's existence (which it already is cuz warriors Shake it off is way better, but then again i think that skill is too good as it is).

Again this circles back to our earlier arguments where I simple do no understand why you are going onto a tank and going “yes I sure do like be able to heal”

Like I can forgive a limited amount of internal sustain as an equivalent to actual mitigation but why are getting your tank fantasy from using an AOE heal, like veil is just straight up succor as an oGCD