A possible fix for "submarine income"

[Reinha]

At best you could still keep access behind an FC, but make each member manage their own submarine.

I like this idea a lot!

1) 4 player fc's would get the same amount of subs as now, solo fcs would get less and bigger fcs would get more. Seems fair.
2) Players would be rewarded according to the amount of effort they put in, including both the leveling/equipment process and the daily logins to run the missions.
3) An fc leader couldn't reap the benefits of something others built, unless they donated it voluntarily.
4) Sublords would be able to operate all their subs within one fc and one house. Buying more houses would be an unnecessary cost.
5) Ownership of submarines could not be transferred to another character, which would make the resale value of a house be based solely on its location.
6) This would bring more fc members to the fc house on a regular basis and increase social interaction.
7) People would have a gameplay reason to belong to an fc. Buffs you can't choose, a bank you can't use and a house you can't decorate are not it, but a workshop would be useful to everyone.

There should also be a way to save submarine progress in those cases where a player leaves or gets kicked and joins another fc.

[WinglessSeraphim]

I like this idea a lot!

1) 4 player fc's would get the same amount of subs as now, solo fcs would get less and bigger fcs would get more. Seems fair.
2) Players would be rewarded according to the amount of effort they put in, including both the leveling/equipment process and the daily logins to run the missions.
3) An fc leader couldn't reap the benefits of something others built, unless they donated it voluntarily.
4) Sublords would be able to operate all their subs within one fc and one house. Buying more houses would be an unnecessary cost.
5) Ownership of submarines could not be transferred to another character, which would make the resale value of a house be based solely on its location.
6) This would bring more fc members to the fc house on a regular basis and increase social interaction.
7) People would have a gameplay reason to belong to an fc. Buffs you can't choose, a bank you can't use and a house you can't decorate are not it, but a workshop would be useful to everyone.

There should also be a way to save submarine progress in those cases where a player leaves or gets kicked and joins another fc.

1. How fair would it be that a FC loses a member for whatever reason, they also lose a sub comparable to the amount of members who left? What would happen if a member joins, does sub number 4 for example have to be redone?
2. That's already a thing from Grand Companies.
3. FC leaders would still be the one calling the shots on who can and can't use the workshop.
4. Letting a sublord run more than 4 subs in one house would result in more gil in the pockets of the sublord. Where will the people complaining about gil from salvage go?
5. So someone takes over a FC after say the FC lead leaves for whatever reasons, the new FC leader would have to start from scratch? What happens if the house gets relocated?
6. How would that increase more social interaction more than what is already done for the more social FCs? What about the FCs that are owned by families or closeknit friends? Should they be inviting and competing with more popular FCs to keep going?
7. FCs are for social interaction for those who wish to have it. The workshop is also on par with the buffs, bank, and house. Why separate that?

[Reinha]

1. How fair would it be that a FC loses a member for whatever reason, they also lose a sub comparable to the amount of members who left? What would happen if a member joins, does sub number 4 for example have to be redone?
2. That's already a thing from Grand Companies.
3. FC leaders would still be the one calling the shots on who can and can't use the workshop.
4. Letting a sublord run more than 4 subs in one house would result in more gil in the pockets of the sublord. Where will the people complaining about gil from salvage go?
5. So someone takes over a FC after say the FC lead leaves for whatever reasons, the new FC leader would have to start from scratch? What happens if the house gets relocated?
6. How would that increase more social interaction more than what is already done for the more social FCs? What about the FCs that are owned by families or closeknit friends? Should they be inviting and competing with more popular FCs to keep going?
7. FCs are for social interaction for those who wish to have it. The workshop is also on par with the buffs, bank, and house. Why separate that?

1. For the same reason it's fair an fc loses two retainers every time a member leaves. A sub would be operated by the individual who creates it. If a member joins, my proposition was that they would still have the sub they built in another fc or they could make their first ever sub.
2. Not a reason to not make this change.
3. Not a reason to not make this change.
4. Wrong, they would get less gil. You can have 32 subs per server per account right now (8 characters in solo fcs with 4 subs each). You would have 8 subs per server with this proposed idea (8 characters with 1 sub each either in separate fcs or the same fc).
5. The new fc leader would still have his own sub or the ability to make one, the same as every other member of the fc. Relocation doesn't affect submarines.
6. One additional reason to visit the fc house will increase the amount of times people visit the fc house. I hope you understand what the word "increase" means. Fc invites are not a part of this topic.
7. What even is your question?

[Jojoya]

The question to be asked is what is the issue with submarines - I feel like the FC/Non-FC content arguement is more a strawman. The question is - whats wrong with submarines? If the issue is that subFC's are eating housing; thats the problem my suggestion aims to solve. If the issue is a persons own personal access to submarines; that's another discussion.

The solution offered essentially minimizes the changes needed as even running subs can be managed by FC permissions.

Personally I don't see anything wrong with subs other than a FC house is required to have the workshop to run them.

I think the correct solution is to detach the workshop from house ownership. That benefits those trying to get a house. And while most probably wouldn't believe this, it would benefit those interested in purchasing items that comes only from sub voyages. More active subs means more of those items making it to the marketboard with competition driving down prices faster. Not everyone is running Fight Club on all of their subs all the time.

But if SE is not going to detach the workshop from house ownership, then solutions are needed to deter those who want the houses just for another workshop so more houses make it into the hands of those who seek a house for the sake of housing. People aren't wrong when they say it's depressing to walk into a ward just to find most owners haven't even decorated their yards. It adds to the ghost town effect.

I dont see any problem with that. Its a highly skewed system now as big FCs gain less per member than small FCs. Idealy you want a system that scales up as FCs increase, but in its current system, as its usualy just a few with access, most members just dont get any value anyway.

The entire FC system is outdated here. At best you could still keep access behind an FC, but make each member manage their own submarine. Alternatively still allowing the FC to have some ships to enable members to get specific resources (like a retainer, but with fixed cycles in which you can request the desired resources - with fixed values given back). This then at least makes it beneficial to have FC subs.

I mostly agree with you. SE has neglected the FC system. They never even followed up on the Rank increase to 30 back in Shadowbringers, with no entitlements added past Rank 20. The only change we got for FCs in Endwalker was adding a length of membership requirement for FC Master to be transferred to another member and that was done to combat RMT sales of houses.

But the FC system neglect is a separate issue that deserves its own discussion.

As for each FC member being able to operate their own sub, that would require a complete overhaul of the voyage system since subs are blanket permission to be able to collect voyage loot from any sub or not collect loot. With the way it is now, a FC Master could demand a monthly payment from members to get the permissions for voyage deployment/recall. "Pay me 500k gil a month to get permissions. Your sub didn't earn you that much this month? Not my problem".

I like this idea a lot!

1) 4 player fc's would get the same amount of subs as now, solo fcs would get less and bigger fcs would get more. Seems fair.
2) Players would be rewarded according to the amount of effort they put in, including both the leveling/equipment process and the daily logins to run the missions.
3) An fc leader couldn't reap the benefits of something others built, unless they donated it voluntarily.
4) Sublords would be able to operate all their subs within one fc and one house. Buying more houses would be an unnecessary cost.
5) Ownership of submarines could not be transferred to another character, which would make the resale value of a house be based solely on its location.
6) This would bring more fc members to the fc house on a regular basis and increase social interaction.
7) People would have a gameplay reason to belong to an fc. Buffs you can't choose, a bank you can't use and a house you can't decorate are not it, but a workshop would be useful to everyone.

There should also be a way to save submarine progress in those cases where a player leaves or gets kicked and joins another fc.

How would schematics for parts and other projects at the Fabrication Station be unlocked?

Considering the massive RNG on what a voyage can return, the loot tables would need to be overhauled or subs would be too expensive for most players to be able to operate.

Again, my point about how FC Masters could sell permissions without a massive overhaul of how workshop access fits into FC hierarchy.

What a FC has unlocked at the Fabrication Station could still impact sale value. Subs/airships aren't the only way to make gil from a workshop, they just require less effort over the long term.

If members aren't being social already, I don't think this would change things. If anything, I think there would be more drama as members would have to wait for other members to finish using the Fabrication Station and Voyage Control Panel to get their own turn.

I don't think SE is interested in creating reasons that would make players feel forced to be part of a FC. Players should join a FC because they enjoy playing with others in the FC and not because membership gates4 a way to earn gil or unique loot.

If being part of a FC is supposed to be a requirement for access, then it doesn't make sense to allow progress to carryover as a player moves from FC to FC. Might as well add personal workshops at that point.

Where will the people complaining about gil from salvage go?

They'll find something new to complain about, of course.

Gil from salvage would be a non-issue if it weren't for workshops being attached to FC houses. As some of us have pointed out several times, what someone is going to make running Fight Club on 4 subs for an entire month is less than what a lot of players make in a single day selling items on the marketboard. What makes it appealing is that once the right sectors are unlocked and the sub has the right parts, it's extremely low effort compared to the effort put in by players who earn more.

What happens if the house gets relocated?

House relocation doesn't affect workshop progress.

FCs are for social interaction for those who wish to have it. The workshop is also on par with the buffs, bank, and house. Why separate that?

Workshops offer no social interaction anymore. That disappeared with the removal of the Light Party requirement to operate the Fabrication Station.

I think you're ignoring that everything about a FC is under the FC Master's control. Want access to the workshop? FC Master has to decide if you should have it. Want a say in what buffs are being run for the FC? Better hope the FC Master agrees with what you want. Want access to the Company Chest? FC Master has to decide if they trust you. Want access to the house? FC Master has to decide if you should have it.

There are a lot of good FCs with good FC Masters out there. They use common sense in handing out permissions instead of going on a power trip.

There are a lot of bad FCs with bad FC Masters out there. They're power tripping away because there's nothing to stop them. Even if members get fed up and leave, the FC Master still has everything the FC built up. In some cases, that's all the FC Master was after in the first place - members to rank up the FC and generate company credits.

[Reinha]

How would schematics for parts and other projects at the Fabrication Station be unlocked?

Considering the massive RNG on what a voyage can return, the loot tables would need to be overhauled or subs would be too expensive for most players to be able to operate.

What a FC has unlocked at the Fabrication Station could still impact sale value. Subs/airships aren't the only way to make gil from a workshop, they just require less effort over the long term.

If being part of a FC is supposed to be a requirement for access, then it doesn't make sense to allow progress to carryover as a player moves from FC to FC. Might as well add personal workshops at that point.

The same way as now. By collecting loot from sectors until you have enough to unlock it. This loot can be stacked in the fc bank if members want to combine their loot with others'.

A single sub is well within the means of one player to build and operate. It was never a new-sprout-still-leveling thing, or a non-crafter thing, and I'm not looking to make it that way.

Good point.

Gating it behind fcs makes sense because of the ways submarines are tied to other workshop functions. I would be ok with personal workshops with one submarine per character, but the workshop was intended to be content for fcs and I don't see a reason why it couldn't remain that way. Character-owned subs would solve the two biggest complaints about submarines: that sublords are taking up housing (they wouldn't need to anymore) and that sublords are gaining too much money (their earnings would be reduced by up to 75% per account).

~~~~~~~

I did think of one problem which is that fc leaders can currently prevent someone from using company credits to buy fuel. Making it so that the company credits are consumed directly when starting a mission would allow people to run their sub even if the fc leader wants to protect the credit reserve by restricting its use on vendors.

[MAJRIS]

What is the point of stomping it to the ground for regular fc's just because a tiny portion (roughly 35% of mist on Alpha btw) are shell shacks?

Make voyages Account-bound, send out max 4 with 24 hour cooldown.

[Shibi]

(With only 6 sub farms of my own, I fall into the make fuel come direct from credits camp.) However, importantly.

Looking out into one of my wards right now....



You want subs? Are you in NA or EU?

1. Buy a second account for one month to form an FC on Materia. Make 4 characters on each of the two accounts. Leave all at level 1, except your sub alt.
2. Form your FC and start levelling to 6 (For me, the fastest is to buy a warrior class boost and expansion skip on the sub alt then run Shisui ~80 times solo)
3. You can dop your second account sub as soon as the fc is formed.
3. Pay for the 8 extra retainers (you absolutely need these to fund your ceruleum tanks)
4. Level your sub alt character and FC leader to 2nd Lieutenant. Yay squadrons.
5. Level your miner to cap
6. Level all 10 retainers to miner cap
7. As soon as you get FC 6, buy one of the few hundred empty plots, small is best as you can use your free 1 million gil for level 30 in Materia. Goblet is best as it's the easiest to get a level 1 mule into.
8. Start your sub grind. You need cobalt, mythrite, and darksteel mainly. Crafting crystals. A lot. Your subs need to be on this as soon as they can. In the first few weeks keep the 10 retainers very busy and craft, craft, craft
9. It will be about 6 months wait now. Keep your 10 retainers on 18h ventures, trade in the blues. Buy venture coins. This can be a bit of a pain until you get it rolling.
10. Log in every day without fail, do your 10 retainers, go into the dungeon, send out the 4 subs (do your calculations on what route will give the move XP)
11. Have one retainer on dark shards.

After those 6 months, you should have 100,000 a day coming in for those 10 retainers you are paying for. Gather it up, every 6 months to a year, pay a month on your second account and do the 1,000,000 gil trade shuffle to exfiltrate the gil back to your home DC.

Congrats you are now earning 30 million gil a year solo for no work (apart from the daily retainer grind) That 30 million costs you an extra $192 a year. So.... 200,000g / US$

[Toutatis]

{snip}After those 6 months, you should have 100,000 a day coming in for those 10 retainers you are paying for. Gather it up, every 6 months to a year, pay a month on your second account and do the 1,000,000 gil trade shuffle to exfiltrate the gil back to your home DC.

Congrats you are now earning 30 million gil a year solo for no work (apart from the daily retainer grind) That 30 million costs you an extra $192 a year. So.... 200,000g / US$

I am not sure if that was serious or a joke. Part of me wants to think it was sarcasm and part of me thinks it could be dead serious. Lots of trouble and money for not much. I can easily make 30 mil within a few weeks just playing the game at no extra cost (roulette role in need, DD and/or maps, quick ventures, gardening sub mats, crafting if I feel like it, etc)

For example, if I were to craft only 6 lvl 86 daily alchemy leves (other leves work too but alchemy stacks and it's from raw ingredients so perfect when waiting for df/pf) on two characters, I'd get 120k/day within minutes. With 2 retainers I can easily get the 4 mats I need and still send retainers get other stuff. I could also log only once per character after several days to craft and turn 100 leves at once and make a mil. No need for the hassle/payment of 8/10 retainers. With all that gathering you can make gils quite easily too... I bet that if you were to send all those 10 retainers away on quick ventures alone, you would make way more than 30 mils at the end of the year.

Anyway, if going to do subs, gardening Althyk Lavender/Voidrake works wonders for certain mats. To level up an FC, I personally prefer to run a mix of Doma Castle, Kugane Castle, Ala Mhigo, St-Mocianne hard (chance to get verdant partition): at lvl 90 they are about just as fast as Shisui and the gear is worth more.

Subs are quite time consuming when getting started and require tons of mats and crafting. It takes some time before you can make profits. It’s not for everyone

[Ravenblade1979]

Seen the comment about 4 players each having a sub. Easy to overcome. Leader makes 3 alts. Same outcome

[Jojoya]

Seen the comment about 4 players each having a sub. Easy to overcome. Leader makes 3 alts. Same outcome

I don't think you read through the conversation thoroughly. The idea was that there would not be a cap on the number of subs operating through a workshop. Instead, every member would have one sub that is tied to the character individually. The workshop would just be where the member goes to interact with their sub.

FC has one member? Then there would only be one sub for the workshop. FC has 50 members? Then there would be 50. If a player wanted access to more than one sub then they need an alt for each additional sub.

It's not sub income that's the problem. The problem is the subs being tied to the workshop with a limit, and the workshop being tied to FC house ownership. That causes those who enjoy running sub farms to consume additional house supply and and that lowers the number available to meet demand. The suggestion is compromise point in leaving subs tied to FCs but giving more players that are members of FCs access to subs.

Personally, I'd still rather see the entire workshop detached from house ownership. Let housing be for player housing and not for gil farming. None of the changes to the system we keep dreaming up would be needed if it weren't for the workshops being attached to FC houses.