If you could, what order would you set tanks in terms of damage?

[GoatOfWar]

I have been seeing a lot of discussion around WAR recently, and I have been curious how you would rank the tank damage in the ideal scenario? Just to make things clear, this is a hypothetical situation where you can modify the tanks for the ranking.

Example: I buff tank DRK's damage and nerf WAR's damage

In their current iteration it should go
Gnb>Drk>Pld>War

Tanks should be taxed for their utility like every other job.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Then you should advocate for the removal of all your utility and self healing to close the gap between the 4 tanks too.

Erm, huh? Cover is a dead skill that has a gauge cost and cooldown, Clemency has a GCD and MP cost, Passage of Arms if channeled has a DPS cost, otherwise, it is only 5 seconds mitigation provided people make use of it when you weave it.

While all other tanks utility is free, sure TBN cost MP but with planned usage it is neutral.

There is already sufficient trade off on Paladin's utility, that it becomes a non factor for balance.

[Derio]

DRK>GNB>PLD=WAR

Simply based on pure self sustain and utility.

HOC is better than TBN.Not to mention DRK is the tank that has the useless trait called enhanced unmend and only sustain is its invuln and 123 combo.

PLD needs to have cover not cost gauge but with passage of arms, intervention, divine veil being heal and shield and the guaranteed once a minute self sustain outside of a defensive cooldown and having clemency( even if its a dps loss its still utility option that really shines in content like deep dungeon and criterion)

WAR in any content where there are 2 or more targets is godly, however in a single target fight its still good, can heal through bleed with equilibrium and even able to increase the incoming heals from healers. Has a group shield and heal over time and can give protection via shield and mitigation and self sustain to another party member with Nascent while also sustaining themselves.

[Supersnow845]

Erm, huh? Cover is a dead skill that has a gauge cost and cooldown, Clemency has a GCD and MP cost, Passage of Arms if channeled has a DPS cost, otherwise, it is only 5 seconds mitigation provided people make use of it when you weave it.

While all other tanks utility is free, sure TBN cost MP but with planned usage it is neutral.

There is already sufficient trade off on Paladin's utility, that it becomes a non factor for balance.

5 seconds of a 15% mitigation on top of divine veil cannot be overstated just how powerful it is. PLD should 100% be taxed on its ability to snapshot passage. Clemency while having an inbuilt DPS tax is also massively beneficial to prog scenarios so I also think it warrants being taxed

WAR should be taxed more heavily but the inbuilt costs of PLD’s extra utility do not compensate for how powerful said utility is and it should be taxed more harshly for it

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

5 seconds of a 15% mitigation on top of divine veil cannot be overstated just how powerful it is. PLD should 100% be taxed on its ability to snapshot passage. Clemency while having an inbuilt DPS tax is also massively beneficial to prog scenarios so I also think it warrants being taxed

WAR should be taxed more heavily but the inbuilt costs of PLD’s extra utility do not compensate for how powerful said utility is and it should be taxed more harshly for it

Well then by that token GNB should equally be taxed for the ability to apply 2 HoTs on different party members and the excog on Heart of Corundum is potent on DPS and healers if you want to start down the rabbit hole. DRK can protect 3 party member with Oblation and TBN, which can just be just as vital in prog.

Undervaluing what GNB and DRK bring is what lead to a very skewed imbalance back in HW when reality was in terms of utility versus DPS, WAR and DRK utility was more potent and versatile than PLD but PLD damage was bottom of the barrel the entire expansion.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

5 seconds of a 15% mitigation on top of divine veil cannot be overstated just how powerful it is. PLD should 100% be taxed on its ability to snapshot passage. Clemency while having an inbuilt DPS tax is also massively beneficial to prog scenarios so I also think it warrants being taxed

WAR should be taxed more heavily but the inbuilt costs of PLD’s extra utility do not compensate for how powerful said utility is and it should be taxed more harshly for it

Clemecy's tax is it being GCD, thus irreversably costing you damage and unlike Raise tax on casters is actually not comparable in output, especially not with NF, HoC, Aurora and the like existing.

Passage's cost is opportunities where you can stack everyone for it when a damage instance is happening, which is increasingly difficult in an MT position - the position that would comfortably utilize the passive heals from attack spells a lot better. The damage tax should not be too high here.

[Rithy255]

Current design:
Drk>Gnb>PLD>War

Drk & Gnb while "easy jobs" are still miles more difficult then War and current PLD. Theirs also the factor Warrior has shortest invul, best sustain and the strongest raid wide, PLD has their conel raid wide and great sustain too but should do more then War due to how long its invul is, which weighs down the job with any invul cheese.

Personally If I were to "design" jobs I'd want
PLD - 4th In damage, has the strongest utility by far, great defensive value & abilities like cover become useful. Hallowed = 7 Mins
Drk - 3rd in damage, has good utility, decent sustain, defensive value ect, good utility, swaps missonary for a stronger barrier aoe reduction LD = 6 Mins
War - 2nd in damage, Larger hp pool & received healing, gives up some mitigation but can survive stuff still, Keeps self sustain to a degree, loses shake for a aoe damage reduction (also mob per hit healing) Holmgang made longer Holm = 6 Mins
Gnb - 1st in damage, decent all around at most things but doesn't really excel and anything, best in terms of dps Bolide = 7 Mins

Keep in mind the damage difference should be 1% at most.

[Oizen]

Well then by that token GNB should equally be taxed for the ability to apply 2 HoTs on different party members and the excog on Heart of Corundum is potent on DPS and healers if you want to start down the rabbit hole. DRK can protect 3 party member with Oblation and TBN, which can just be just as vital in prog.

Undervaluing what GNB and DRK bring is what lead to a very skewed imbalance back in HW when reality was in terms of utility versus DPS, WAR and DRK utility was more potent and versatile than PLD but PLD damage was bottom of the barrel the entire expansion.

GNB and DRK bring basically the standard bare minimum though. Where's GNB's and DRKS extra 15% mit, or teamwide shield? They got 10% on magic only, and thats it.
TBN and HoC are not as powerful as Intervention, and they don't even get the option of clemency or cover. Sure I like these skills way more than just going the WAR route of making everything overtuned for free, but it should be noted that GNB and DRK do not even have these as options in their kit, there is no equivalence, or even a unique thing you can point to either of them doing that PLD doesn't also do.

Closest you can get to a utility on these two is Oblation, which is why I think GNB should be damage king, but its also REALLY underwhelming compared to what PLD is packing.

And HW's imbalance was due to their insistance that PLD wasn't allowed to block magic damage, that isn't the case anymore.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

GNB and DRK bring basically the standard bare minimum though. Where's GNB's and DRKS extra 15% mit, or teamwide shield? They got 10% on magic only, and thats it.

yes Heart of Light and Dark Missionary are 10% magic mit, but in multi-hit raid wides that have been super common this expac, are more mitigation than Veil and sometimes Shake It Off (I do not agree with the regen randomly slapped on there for no reason). Passage of Arms, requires a degree of awareness and co-ordination and skill to make effective use of it, and even more so as MT, it's not as braindead as Heart of Light and Dark Missionary. And when Passage of Arms is channelled, it is a DPS loss during uptime.

TBN and HoC are not as powerful as Intervention, and they don't even get the option of clemency or cover. Sure I like these skills way more than just going the WAR route of making everything overtuned for free, but it should be noted that GNB and DRK do not even have these as options in their kit, there is no equivalence, or even a unique thing you can point to either of them doing that PLD doesn't also do.

I mean by default Heart of Corundum defensively is stronger than Intervention, and the Excog is more reliable than 4 ticks of of a regen, with a heal potency difference of 100 in favour of Intervention, but sure if Rampart or Sentinel is active, there is an additional 10% for Intervention, bringing mitigation value to closer parity.

TBN I guess is the weakest compared to the other three tanks short mits but in some circumstances it can be more beneficial than the other short mits as it does not lose value as it is not affected by diminishing returns.

Closest you can get to a utility on these two is Oblation, which is why I think GNB should be damage king, but its also REALLY underwhelming compared to what PLD is packing.

I mean it is free mitigation with 0 drawbacks that can be pretty vital in prog and for general optimisation, that PLD or WAR cannot necessarily compete with as Intervention and Nascent Flash are only applicable to a single target.

Aurora same deal free to use, saves resources for healers and good for prog and general optimisation, that again PLD or WAR cannot necessarily compete with, and before you say "but Clemency..." it is not free and is a DPS / resource loss using it so should never be a factor in determining an arbitrary tax slapped on for the sake of taking DPS away from PLD.

Cover again has a 2 minute cooldown, 50 gauge cost, and does not apply instantly, so is not even reliable as an emergency button to save prog.

And HW's imbalance was due to their insistance that PLD wasn't allowed to block magic damage, that isn't the case anymore.

lol really? are you on copium?

it had nothing to do with blocking magic damage lmao

PLD had Cover which only worked on physical damage, Divine Veil which required GCD healing to activate, and didn't affect the PLD that cast it, and Clemency which as above mentioned a DPS loss, oh and STR down from Rage of Halone (on it's aggro combo lul). WAR brought slashing resistance down, Storm's Path's permanent 10% damage reduction to all primary stats on the target. DRK had 10% damage reduction on all primary stats on the target with Reprisal which would often proc in most fights, and a 10% INT down off of Delirium. so again in terms of effective utility WAR and DRK were leagues ahead of PLD, so by the argument here, PLD should have been top of the DPS in HW.

[Supersnow845]

HW PLD had many problems that all contributed to it being bad

It’s only real utility was the strength down on rage of halone compared to the others superior effects, it did struggle with tank damage in gordias because PLD was designed as a physical tank forcing it to try to over rely on hallowed ground which didn’t work because of its CD and for all those downsides it also did the worst damage by a wide margin of the three tanks

It basically just had no upsides but it was certainly a collection of factors that contributed