Give Warrior the Dark Knight treatment in regards to Bloodwhetting

[Oizen]

Dark Knight feels bad in 60-70 dungeons, and I think that has more to do with the fact that its a job that feels like trash under level sync, despite being a HW job.

I think DRK is fine in dungeons beyond that point, and I think its part of a larger issue about how shitty level sync is getting in this game more than anything DRK specific, like maybe Abyssal Drain is undetuned compared to the other tanks but thats about it.

[aiqa]

Dark Knight feels bad in 60-70 dungeons, and I think that has more to do with the fact that its a job that feels like trash under level sync, despite being a HW job.

I think DRK is fine in dungeons beyond that point, and I think its part of a larger issue about how shitty level sync is getting in this game more than anything DRK specific, like maybe Abyssal Drain is undetuned compared to the other tanks but thats about it.

Lots of jobs feel bad at lower levels. For example PLD at level 79 or lower has 0 ogcd/inherent selfhealing. (And then gets overcompensated in the last 11 levels.)

[Supersnow845]

Lots of jobs feel bad at lower levels. For example PLD at level 79 or lower has 0 ogcd/inherent selfhealing. (And then gets overcompensated in the last 11 levels.)

Low level PLD is compensated by having permanent block chance the other tanks don’t have

PLD functionally has something like a permanent ~7% mitigation on itself just by nature of being a PLD

[aiqa]

Low level PLD is compensated by having permanent block chance the other tanks don’t have

PLD functionally has something like a permanent ~7% mitigation on itself just by nature of being a PLD

10% chance for 20% mitigation is not 7% overall mitigation, that is 2% (for the things that can be blocked). And that isn't anywhere near compensating for any significant amount of self healing.

To be sure I didn't make a mistake for block strength/rate when leveling down. I did a quick level 60 fate using a level 665 shield. That scaled block strength down to 18% mitigation, and it took about 20 hits to get 1 block so the normal 10% block rate cap seem to apply to level sync to.

[Supersnow845]

10% chance for 20% mitigation is not 7% overall mitigation, that is 2% (for the things that can be blocked). And that isn't anywhere near compensating for any significant amount of self healing.

To be sure I didn't make a mistake for block strength/rate when leveling down. I did a quick level 60 fate using a level 665 shield. That scaled block strength down to 18% mitigation, and it took about 20 hits to get 1 block so the normal 10% block rate cap seem to apply to level sync to.

I swore it was higher but regardless that 2-3% permanent mitigation (and that will scale harder with more mobs in say a dungeon) is pretty much exactly decent compensation for having no rotational healing

Again WAR is the outlier here, until HOC GNB only gets its rotational heals and aurora and DRK only gets its rotational heals and abyssal drain

The mistake comes from retroactively making nascent flash weak bloodwhetting at level 56

[aiqa]

I swore it was higher but regardless that 2-3% permanent mitigation (and that will scale harder with more mobs in say a dungeon) is pretty much exactly decent compensation for having no rotational healing

Again WAR is the outlier here, until HOC GNB only gets its rotational heals and aurora and DRK only gets its rotational heals and abyssal drain

The mistake comes from retroactively making nascent flash weak bloodwhetting at level 56

There is no way to go over 2% (I refuse to count "lucky RNG" as a valid way to go over 2%). It never gets to 2-3% mitigation from passive blocking, no matter how many mobs attack you. It only goes down from 2% due to level scaling and unblockable stuff, never up.

And sure I agree tank self healing overall, and tank team support eating into the healer role, needs a balance pass. Lowering selfhealing on WAR in particular and PLD slightly less so, make sure DRK and GNB are somewhat on par, and remove ogcd AoE healing/shielding/regen.

But the assumption that (best case) 2% mitigation will compensate for any significant amount of selfhealing is just not true long before PLD got selfheals in EW. That 2% mitigation is about equivilant to 2500 healing for a fully geared level 90 tank, every time their health goes down from 100% to 0. Dying faster than healing 2500 means you might be pulling to much and not using your other defenses properly. Realistically block only pulls ahead of selfheals for the levels when tanks have 0 selfheals. Not counting actually losing the healing abilities at some level, scaling down to lower levels changes the max health and healing amount and incoming damage, that cancels eachother out about as much as you can expect from lower level balance in FF.

[Supersnow845]

There is no way to go over 2%. It never gets to 2-3% mitigation from passive blocking, no matter how many mobs attack you. It only goes down from 2% due to level scaling and unblockable stuff, never up.

And sure I agree tank self healing overall, and tank team support eating into the healer role, needs a balance pass. Lowering selfhealing on WAR in particular and PLD slightly less so, make sure DRK and GNB are somewhat on par, and remove ogcd AoE healing/shielding/regen.

But the assumption that (best case) 2% mitigation will compensate for any significant amount of selfhealing is just not true, long before PLD got selfheals in EW. That 2% mitigation is about equivilant to 2500 healing for a fully geared level 90 tank, every time their health goes down from 100% to 0. Dying faster than healing 2500 means you might be pulling to much and not using your other defenses properly. Realistically block only pulls ahead of selfheals for the levels when tanks have 0 selfheals. Not counting actually losing the healing abilities at some level, scaling down to lower levels changes the max health and healing amount and incoming damage, that cancels eachother out about as much as you can expect from lower level balance in FF.

It’s worth about 2500 healing every time the tanks HP goes from 100-0, yes and think about how many times a PLD takes sequential damage that would end up being lethal if not for healing, a regular pull even in a gimped 90 dungeon would still take you from 100-0 3-4 times in terms of total damage taken over the course of the pull which of course that all is partially blocked because block is always up

As I said it’s basically compensation for the self heal on storms path/souleater/brutal shell, then clemency is equal to your aurora/abyssal drain (clemency gives you more control at the expense of damage), it’s WAR that throws it all out of alignment because of nascent flash, equilibrium and thrill

[Zairava]

Small nitpicks, but at lvl 56 is Raw Intuition and I think you meant Bloodwhetting for the second response (though they're more or less same except NF still heals the WAR because..reasons?)

But yeah, passive blocking isn't really as potent as some people might make it out to be. Sure it's rng passive mit but the Paladin is still going to be mincemeat if they actively try relying on it to survive.

I never really felt like Paladin was supposed to have a rotational self-heal and that the only time I considered blocking as compensation for that was when Holy Sheltron guaranteed them. Passive blocking would need a buff if it truly was supposed to make up for it, though I would like to see the healing taken out of the Confiteor combo and Holy Spirit/Circle.

I felt like blocking was at it's best when Holy Sheltron guaranteed it but they revamped it to give mit instead due to bleeds and gave PLD Bulwark back.

[PercibelTheren]

But DRK is really only bad in dungeons and even then that is only if you have bad group dps to where the incoming damage is faster than the adds are dying to where the healer has to actually do their job.

Many healers are so used to any other tank than DRK in the dungeon so when they do get a DRK its almost like you are trolling for bringing the DRK to the dungeon.

Funny how AD was gutted a while back, we lost sole survivor only for them to bring it back in PVP. Salted earth heals in PVP why not in PVE?

Then you have to talk about DRK pre lvl 70 because we all know compared to the other tanks how bad it is to not have TBN in dungeons. DRK is the only tank to not get homogenized in the tank sustain department and in casual content that is not a good thing.

DRK is fine in dungeons, provided said DRK knows what they're doing. If the player is actually using their mits, they barely take any damage and are easy enough to heal with the occasional OGCD. You just can't straight up ignore them like you can most other tanks.

[aiqa]

It’s worth about 2500 healing every time the tanks HP goes from 100-0, yes and think about how many times a PLD takes sequential damage that would end up being lethal if not for healing, a regular pull even in a gimped 90 dungeon would still take you from 100-0 3-4 times in terms of total damage taken over the course of the pull which of course that all is partially blocked because block is always up

As I said it’s basically compensation for the self heal on storms path/souleater/brutal shell, then clemency is equal to your aurora/abyssal drain (clemency gives you more control at the expense of damage), it’s WAR that throws it all out of alignment because of nascent flash, equilibrium and thrill

Taking damage of 3 or 4 times their max health maybe happens the most extreme pulls. In the latest level 90 dungeon it's generally less than 2 times, and that dungeon has some relatively big fights. And a GNB does between 1500 and 2000 HPS on those. So block would be equivalent to healing only if the whole fight lasted 4 second, and all incoming damage would be stuffed into those 4 seconds. In reality they take about 10 times as long (generally you can use abilities with 1 minute cooldown every pull, and taking into account about 20 seconds of running). So that means doing big pulls in dungeons at level 90, block is equivalent about 2500*2/40= 125HPS (equivalence to healing per full health bar, times the number of full health bars lost in a fight, divided by the time the fight takes). That isn't going to compensate for much, even in the in the most extreme cases of 3 or 4 health bars lost per fight.

There is a good reason Clemency is almost never used. Losing a GCD for a selfheal is almost never a good idea. That means mobs live longer so they attack you longer, so you take more damage. And the extra time you take to kill the mobs means your other defenses are more likely to run out, so you take even more damage. Clemency is a bit like (but even worse then) Cure1 on WHM, or rez on SMN, in that it's very situational and you want to avoid is unless you absolutely need it, or when you have nothing else to do. You can't easily balance that directly against other stuff that you can use far more freely, and is useful far more generally.

Devs finally managed to figure this all out in EW and gave PLD some much needed passive healing (but unfortunately overcompensated quite a bit).

/edit
Just to be sure I did some extended testing against a level 90 enemy. Block rate was a bit higher than I thought, it ended up at 20%. So an overall mitigiation of 4% and double all those numbers about HPS equivalence and such. Still not anywhere equal to what any sustain from other tank do. In big endgame pulls which is where block "shines" it would be equal to about 250 HPS, maybe slightly more on some of the biggest pulls.