Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[rawker]

So I would like to raise this question, should healer dps be higher than tanks? My personal answer to this is yes.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I feel like they should be about the same more or less, with AST being 100% lower and SGE or WHM being close, if not on par with GNB degree of dps. But I'm not math person lol.

[Aravell]

So I would like to raise this question, should healer dps be higher than tanks? My personal answer to this is yes.

Fully optimised healer dps should be higher than tanks, imo. Then they should design fights around trying to prevent healers from reaching that theoretical maximum dps. That way, healers will still be slightly behind tanks in most cases, but they can equal or surpass tanks in a fully optimised scenario.

Of course, there should be differences, AST should be equal or lower than the lowest tank because they bring party buffs while WHM and SGE should be higher than the highest tank because they don't bring buffs.

[Valence]

Why cant they design healers to have low entry points for the casual healers and have high ceiling to incentivize skilled players?

The same reason they decided that having braindead jobs and more involved jobs kept separate is the way to go instead of striving for accessible jobs all across the board with potential for intricate play and higher ceiling.

[ty_taurus]

Fully optimised healer dps should be higher than tanks, imo. Then they should design fights around trying to prevent healers from reaching that theoretical maximum dps. That way, healers will still be slightly behind tanks in most cases, but they can equal or surpass tanks in a fully optimised scenario.

Of course, there should be differences, AST should be equal or lower than the lowest tank because they bring party buffs while WHM and SGE should be higher than the highest tank because they don't bring buffs.

I would say that healer DPS should be relatively the same as Tank DPS at full uptime. The order of highest personal DPS output might then look like:

GNB/SGE > DRK/WHM > WAR/PLD > SCH > AST

SCH and AST being a little lower due to having raid buffs.

In group content, however, the combination of mechanics and the healing kit should generally be designed such that the average player will lose, say 20%-30% of their uptime to GCD healing, resulting in healers having lower DPS due to their need to heal, which is a good thing. But the other advantage to this is it makes solo content a bit faster and smoother for healers. Healers could also have a little higher DPS than tanks like you say, which used to be true in fact. What I describe was more accurately what we saw in the earlier days. And that’s something I believe benefits everyone in the ongoing healer arguments. Even if you’re someone against healers getting more DPS, being able to clear solo fights more quickly and being expected to heal more frequently are two things I would think coincides with your goals.

[rawker]

Chain Stratagem is just HW AST Spear card. SE really needs to revert to HW AST cards, while reworking Bole and Spire so SCH can be rid of it.

[Maltothoris]

Correction, HW spear was CDR or cooldown reduction. They changed it in patch 4.05 when they forgot to nerf balance in 4.0 and then did that and changing spear from cdr to crit rate.

[ty_taurus]

In other words, Spear and CS existed at the same time, further invalidating Stormblood WHM who was left out of the SCH/AST synergy. Back then, there were multiple jobs that had very blatant synergy with the Slash/Pierce/Blunt debuffs, so it’s not that surprising.

Personally, I thought it was very bizarre to give SCH CS back during Stormblood. During Heavensward, AST’s personal damage being so low made sense because of their ability to buff the damage of the party. Selene’s attack speed was there, yea, but it was pretty small comparatively, and I didn’t like that either tbh. SCH is the healer who begins as a DPS and had such high personal damage potential, rivaling DPS jobs even. So it having buffs felt like overkill.

I think we need to separate critical hit into Crit Rate and Crit Damage rather than Critical Hit and Direct Hit (i.e. crit but worse) having rate and damage as separate metrics helps provide more avenues for stat expression and buff diversity, and is relatively balanced because they’re connected.

[rawker]

Correction, HW spear was CDR or cooldown reduction. They changed it in patch 4.05 when they forgot to nerf balance in 4.0 and then did that and changing spear from cdr to crit rate.

Ah yeah.. I forgot about CDR. my bad. Thanks for correcting my error

[Aravell]

I would say that healer DPS should be relatively the same as Tank DPS at full uptime. The order of highest personal DPS output might then look like:

GNB/SGE > DRK/WHM > WAR/PLD > SCH > AST

SCH and AST being a little lower due to having raid buffs.

I don't really agree that they should be more or less equal, because healers usually operate at an expected loss while tank performance is entirely on their own play.

To me, the ideal scenario would be like this:

WHM > SGE > GNB > DRK = SCH > WAR > PLD = AST

If fights are tuned properly to actually require GCD healing, WHM will end up also being lower than PLD despite being far ahead in an optimal scenario. This is ideal because tank dps is static, they would always be able to achieve maximum dps regardless of what their party is doing, meanwhile healer dps fluctuates a lot dependent on how well everyone else plays.

Given that, I think WHM having the highest dps is fair given that they still would never beat a GNB unless playing in a fully coordinated environment.