Give Warrior the Dark Knight treatment in regards to Bloodwhetting

[GoatOfWar]

There is also an argument to be made that tanks need to be challenged more in content than hits everyone is part of my argument

If I only have time to heal one person before a raidwide and I can choose to send a SMN from 70% to 95% with zero vuln stacks or a tank from 20% to 30% with 3 vuln stacks 9 times out of 10 I am genuinely better off healing the SMN

Tanks should take less damage than the party but not so much less that anything that’s not specifically designed to only hit the tanks is functionally just getting hit by a piece of wet tissue to them. In the current design in content where everyone is taking some measure of damage healing the tank individually is functionally never the correct answer

It's a result of the arms race in the tank roster.
Any time a tank does something War doesn't, or god forbid, better.. It tends to get streamlined.
Drk having a really powerful short cd mit in Shb? It's now the weakest one in nearly every situation. Because they buffed the ever living hell out of the others.
Drk having more lifesteal than War? Unacceptable. Other tanks having a longer duration on their invuln than Warriors to offset the longer cooldown? Nope. Buff Warrior's invuln duration.
Other tanks taking less damage from the bleed in Abyssos than Warrior? Unacceptable. Let's double the healing on Equilibrium by adding Gunbreaker's Aurora to it.
Oh, there's also partywides with a bleed? Let's just arbitrarily make shake it of 4 times stronger than it already is with overtime during the Paladin rework.

Little by little, step by step, this is how we got here.
And it almost always involves loud Warrior players.

[fulminating]

>Other tanks taking less damage from the bleed in Abyssos than Warrior? Unacceptable. Let's double the healing on Equilibrium by adding Gunbreaker's Aurora to it.
6.0 change, most charitable interpretation is they were trying to lean into the low damage hp tank niche but it's pretty silly.

>Oh, there's also partywides with a bleed? Let's just arbitrarily make shake it of 4 times stronger than it already is with overtime during the Paladin rework.
pld/war combo bringing low damage nor answer to the bleeds was also not good. Were you a dev, how would you have addressed that as the tier's favoured mechanic?

>Drk having a really powerful short cd mit in Shb? It's now the weakest one in nearly every situation. Because they buffed the ever living hell out of the others.
do you mean stormblood? nascent has been king in dungeon since 5.0 as long as someone was nearby, and especially 5.3. Also I'm fairly sure you'd be upset if tbn was harder to break, given it's pretty important for moving an edge under buffs. Perhaps an oblation buff or putting abyssal drain back to spell status would be a way to strengthen drk without that conflicting.

re:invulns
living dead's precast made it somewhat easier to use, superbolide is a true invuln/prevents damage rather than death but requires healing and hallowed ground is a true invuln with the only caveat possibly being a slightly longer animation delay. Living dead could definitely have done with abyssal drain being restored, but if you were to order them, I find it hard to believe a different order would be chosen. 30s difference per tier or don't die/don't damage split 60s apart might make things better there though.

Not that warrior isn't currently overtuned, but be accurate with your criticisms

[GoatOfWar]

>Other tanks taking less damage from the bleed in Abyssos than Warrior? Unacceptable. Let's double the healing on Equilibrium by adding Gunbreaker's Aurora to it.
6.0 change, most charitable interpretation is they were trying to lean into the low damage hp tank niche but it's pretty silly.

>Oh, there's also partywides with a bleed? Let's just arbitrarily make shake it of 4 times stronger than it already is with overtime during the Paladin rework.
pld/war combo bringing low damage nor answer to the bleeds was also not good. Were you a dev, how would you have addressed that as the tier's favoured mechanic?

>Drk having a really powerful short cd mit in Shb? It's now the weakest one in nearly every situation. Because they buffed the ever living hell out of the others.
do you mean stormblood? nascent has been king in dungeon since 5.0 as long as someone was nearby, and especially 5.3. Also I'm fairly sure you'd be upset if tbn was harder to break, given it's pretty important for moving an edge under buffs. Perhaps an oblation buff or putting abyssal drain back to spell status would be a way to strengthen drk without that conflicting.

re:invulns
living dead's precast made it somewhat easier to use, superbolide is a true invuln/prevents damage rather than death but requires healing and hallowed ground is a true invuln with the only caveat possibly being a slightly longer animation delay. Living dead could definitely have done with abyssal drain being restored, but if you were to order them, I find it hard to believe a different order would be chosen. 30s difference per tier or don't die/don't damage split 60s apart might make things better there though.

Not that warrior isn't currently overtuned, but be accurate with your criticisms

If they were turning it into the support job you think they were, they wouldn't have let them do the same dps as the other tanks at bare minimum. But they didn't.
I'm not being inaccurate. In the end they buffed your damage to match (and overtake) the damage of the supposed dps tanks. But you still get to enjoy the support.

[Lyth]

A lot of this comes down to rebuilding the community's trust in the balance team. The same jobs shouldn't remain on top across multiple expansions. Otherwise you create an environment where people feel that it's not worthwhile focusing on tanking unless you like WAR's ten year old job aesthetic. Part of the problem is that the balance team only has five members, which has resulted in some clear favorites over the years. You need a clearly impartial approach to balance to get players to commit to the role.

While you can downplay the importance of individual actions on balance, they do add up in players' minds. If everyone can agree that Bloodwhetting is too powerful under AoE conditions, then why hasn't the action been adjusted yet? We've been talking about this since the start of the expansion, and it's a relatively simple fix - just make the self-heal apply once per weaponskill. If Vengeance's thorns effect is no big deal, then why is the action uniquely better than all the 120s defensives for 10 years running? You shouldn't object to losing the additional effect. If Shake it Off was considered 'balanced' against the weaker Dark Missionary and Heart of Light, why did it become progressively stronger in 5.2, 6.0, and 6.3? If Holmgang was considered to be balanced against Superbolide in 5.0, why did it receive progressive buffs in 5.1 and 6.0?

If these are only 'minor' advantages, then I would recommend the following changes:

• Thrill of Battle: The additional effect "Increases HP recovery via healing actions on self by 20%" has been removed. (Revert Pre-5.0)
• Vengenace: The effect "delivers an attack with a potency of 55 every time you suffer physical damage" has been removed.
• Holmgang: Recast time has been increased from 240 to 360 seconds.
• Equilibrium: The additional effect "Gradually restores HP Cure Potency 200" has been removed. (Revert pre-6.0)
• Shake it Off: Barrier absorption has been decreased from 15% to 8% of maximum HP. (Revert pre-5.0). The additional effects "Gradually restores HP" (Revert pre-6.3) and "Restores target's HP" (Revert pre-6.0) have been removed.
• Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting: Fixed an issue wherein players would receive HP restoration more than once per weaponskill executed.
• Hire a tank job designer who actually knows how to play more than one tank job, and declare any conflicts of interest openly for players to be aware of.

There's probably more changes that you could make in fairness, but reverting some of the mitigation powercreep between 4.0 to present would be a start.

[Derio]

The problem with TBN exists in the leveling process, not at max level. At max level you are mostly overgeared for the dungeon anyways so the shield is much stronger. But lets take a lvl 91 DRK in a lvl92 dungeon. The experience will be extremely different from the other tanks.

Ultimately its about balance in all content. Not just savage and ultimate. Someone needs to ask the developers in terms of tank damage and utility how are they balancing the game around these two factors?

[Sqwall]

>Other tanks taking less damage from the bleed in Abyssos than Warrior? Unacceptable. Let's double the healing on Equilibrium by adding Gunbreaker's Aurora to it.
6.0 change, most charitable interpretation is they were trying to lean into the low damage hp tank niche but it's pretty silly.

>Oh, there's also partywides with a bleed? Let's just arbitrarily make shake it of 4 times stronger than it already is with overtime during the Paladin rework.
pld/war combo bringing low damage nor answer to the bleeds was also not good. Were you a dev, how would you have addressed that as the tier's favoured mechanic?

>Drk having a really powerful short cd mit in Shb? It's now the weakest one in nearly every situation. Because they buffed the ever living hell out of the others.
do you mean stormblood? nascent has been king in dungeon since 5.0 as long as someone was nearby, and especially 5.3. Also I'm fairly sure you'd be upset if tbn was harder to break, given it's pretty important for moving an edge under buffs. Perhaps an oblation buff or putting abyssal drain back to spell status would be a way to strengthen drk without that conflicting.

re:invulns
living dead's precast made it somewhat easier to use, superbolide is a true invuln/prevents damage rather than death but requires healing and hallowed ground is a true invuln with the only caveat possibly being a slightly longer animation delay. Living dead could definitely have done with abyssal drain being restored, but if you were to order them, I find it hard to believe a different order would be chosen. 30s difference per tier or don't die/don't damage split 60s apart might make things better there though.

Not that warrior isn't currently overtuned, but be accurate with your criticisms

Spot on description.

[Sqwall]

The problem with TBN exists in the leveling process, not at max level. At max level you are mostly overgeared for the dungeon anyways so the shield is much stronger. But lets take a lvl 91 DRK in a lvl92 dungeon. The experience will be extremely different from the other tanks.

Ultimately its about balance in all content. Not just savage and ultimate. Someone needs to ask the developers in terms of tank damage and utility how are they balancing the game around these two factors?

I don't think they honestly care about balancing dungeon content in the slightest. It's been like this for maybe 5-6 years. I think resource wise it would be very expensive to tune every single dungeon to every single job comp so that job doesn't outshine others.

[Sqwall]

If these are only 'minor' advantages, then I would recommend the following changes:

• Thrill of Battle: The additional effect "Increases HP recovery via healing actions on self by 20%" has been removed. (Revert Pre-5.0)
  This is pretty insignificant imo. It's basically convalescence of old but with a small heal. I doubt changing this will even be noticed. Thrill is for those moments right before a tank buster and after. It's duration is so short I rarely see the amount healed as a positive as it never keeps me above my current MAX HP.
• Vengenace: The effect "delivers an attack with a potency of 55 every time you suffer physical damage" has been removed.
  Again, completely insignificant value of damage going out. I wouldn't even miss it if was gone, but then change vengeance to something else for the 30% mit. Further homogenizing.
• Holmgang: Recast time has been increased from 240 to 360 seconds.
  This won't make any of the other tanks any better. This also won't change the fact that WAR is brought into savage as a meta for this soul purpose of invuln more often.
• Equilibrium: The additional effect "Gradually restores HP Cure Potency 200" has been removed. (Revert pre-6.0)
  This will ruin warriors self sustain in a 1v1 drastically, so far under the other tanks that the other tanks will outshine it completely. At least make it a guaranteed critical to compensate.
• Shake it Off: Barrier absorption has been decreased from 15% to 8% of maximum HP. (Revert pre-5.0). The additional effects "Gradually restores HP" (Revert pre-6.3) and "Restores target's HP" (Revert pre-6.0) have been removed.
  This is completely useless skill now. 8% is so minimal that it won't even amount to using it. This skill is basically relegated to a measly 7k absorb on a DPS with 87,000HP....that's it.
• Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting: Fixed an issue wherein players would receive HP restoration more than once per weaponskill executed.
  This is the only thing correct.
• Hire a tank job designer who actually knows how to play more than one tank job, and declare any conflicts of interest openly for players to be aware of.

There's probably more changes that you could make in fairness, but reverting some of the mitigation powercreep between 4.0 to present would be a start.

I put comments in your quote...this is no reflection on what Lyth said.

Funny thing is you ONLY touched mitigations and one trick pony buttons. You didn't even talk about or touch on WAR's damage.

I would never even take that iteration into a savage environment....that would be a nightmare to heal.

[Icecylee]

I'm genuinely curious why so many people see rebalancing Bloodwhetting's healing as "gutting a fun tank".

tbqh it's probably because the first few times you run war/3dps and realize you are a god and capable of clearing the dungeon using nothing but bloodwhetting/nascent, it's really exciting. And it's probably one of the few places you can still have fun and get that same rush as a tank/support in modern ff14. Granted this very quickly gets kind boring as you realize how stupid and low effort it actually is, but if it's something you're not doing very often it's a pretty big dopamine hint.

[Oizen]

If these are only 'minor' advantages, then I would recommend the following changes:

• Thrill of Battle: The additional effect "Increases HP recovery via healing actions on self by 20%" has been removed. (Revert Pre-5.0)
• Vengenace: The effect "delivers an attack with a potency of 55 every time you suffer physical damage" has been removed.
• Holmgang: Recast time has been increased from 240 to 360 seconds.
• Equilibrium: The additional effect "Gradually restores HP Cure Potency 200" has been removed. (Revert pre-6.0)
• Shake it Off: Barrier absorption has been decreased from 15% to 8% of maximum HP. (Revert pre-5.0). The additional effects "Gradually restores HP" (Revert pre-6.3) and "Restores target's HP" (Revert pre-6.0) have been removed.
• Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting: Fixed an issue wherein players would receive HP restoration more than once per weaponskill executed.
• Hire a tank job designer who actually knows how to play more than one tank job, and declare any conflicts of interest openly for players to be aware of.

There's probably more changes that you could make in fairness, but reverting some of the mitigation powercreep between 4.0 to present would be a start.

Please don't. Like I get that WAR is overpowered and we've been ragging on it but the last thing I want to see is another job be robbed of its tools.
I view the issue more of as why are the devs ok with Shadow Wall, Sentinel, and Nebula being literal clone skills while Vengeance is the exact same skill with an added perk. Why make Dark Missionary and HoL niche clone skills when Shake gets all of that?

With some fringe exceptions of Holmgang's CD being too low causing it being to easy to discount savage TB mechs, or NF being too valuable compared to other tank's shield on allies, I'd really rather not just strip WAR of all of this.
I'd much rather just give the other tanks their own forms of this, in ways that fit them more uniquely. I take more issue with the favoritism than the fact these tools exist at all, and no the other tanks dont need to be matched in sustain. I just dont like how many clone skills the others get saddled with while WAR gets the exact same skill with some additional effect making it an objective upgrade.