Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Supersnow845]

The main reason AST sucks to play is because they brought back 5.0 AST Sleeve Draw without the button. Remember back then when you had to activate Sleeve Draw and then press Draw and press Play 3 times in a row? That's what the AST burst window currently is. I can't fathom why they deleted late-ShB Sleeve Draw if AST is played like this anyway, if we had Sleeve Draw, we'd at least not have to weave Draw 3 times.

But that's a problem of design, my point is that playing that way isn't required. You say it loses dps, yes, it loses some dps, but why do people care unless they're chasing logs? That's my main point, "Why do people complain about optimised play when they also claim that they don't care about logs?".

I’ll at least say that I find it personally “annoying” when the game is designed in such a way that it’s near impossible to play the class optimally even if you want to put in the effort to do it so

It’s not so much “chasing logs” it’s the idea that I know how the class should be played and I want to play it like that but it’s design actively makes it harder and that feels bad

Energy drain is a different story because that is actually a choice that for some reason people don’t believe is a choice but for something like cards which are actively designed terribly and makes it hard to actually do it correctly the loss caused by drifting cards feels bad, it’s the same as trying to do NIN or DNC’s burst window on 250 ping , trying to play optimally when there are annoying limitations feels bad

Also sorry if I rambled the same point 15 times there I’m writing this whole trying to pay attention to FFXVI in the background

[Aravell]

I’ll at least say that I find it personally “annoying” when the game is designed in such a way that it’s near impossible to play the class optimally even if you want to put in the effort to do it so

It’s not so much “chasing logs” it’s the idea that I know how the class should be played and I want to play it like that but it’s design actively makes it harder and that feels bad

I think the whole issue comes down to how the dev team makes changes to the jobs without thinking of wider implications.

While I don't think AST is exactly badly designed, I do see some questionable decisions. Like the 2nd charge of Draw you mentioned, AST played fine in ShB after they fixed Sleeve Draw, I'm not sure why they felt the need to do this. Astrodyne also makes the burst window busier for little actual gain (Double Astrodyne is stupid, fight me). Also the Lord/Lady RNG sucks.

While I personally don't find it that hard to play AST well, I do see the limitations you mentioned. They did make AST busier for little benefit. Could probably fix it by removing the 2nd charge of Draw while bringing Sleeve Draw back. I'd be perfectly happy with anything as long as they keep AST the speedy job.

[ty_taurus]

I would argue that the road to perfection should feel intuitive and rewarding for every job. At its apex, every job should feel fun to play for that particular playstyle. Something like Energy Drain (particularly before it was nerfed into the pavement) makes a lot of sense because being able to take advantage of it in the past did not mean dumping every Aetherflow into it. You had to make choices at different parts of a fight on what you can and cannot afford to be greedy with, and that's something that is really rewarding.

But that doesn't mean that optimized path has to be the only enjoyable way to play a game. And in general, we need to stop looking at everything as having 1 "correct" path and everything else is objectively wrong. Our community has a tendency to treat barsing as the "right" way, and everything else is failure even when still completing a fight. That's why I like alternative rotations when they're discovered--rotations that are easier to perform yet are strong enough to be competitive thanks to more room for error.

[Aravell]

But that doesn't mean that optimized path has to be the only enjoyable way to play a game. And in general, we need to stop looking at everything as having 1 "correct" path and everything else is objectively wrong. Our community has a tendency to treat barsing as the "right" way, and everything else is failure even when still completing a fight.

It'll never not be funny to me that the general community treats the balance discord as a toxic elitist cesspool while simultaneously following their job guides like sheep.

But yes, being optimal isn't a necessity and people need to stop treating it like the end of the world when they need to hardcast a res.

[rawker]

... the end of the world when they need to hardcast a res.

nah.. most players don't have the balls to hard cast Raise while mayhem happens. XD

Edit and off-topic.. got a good laugh when I revisited an old game I used to play when I was a wee lad

Like seriously.. even before, Sages and Scholars are meant to be linked. Not to mention that Sages in that game has books as its weapon.

[Aravell]

nah.. most players don't have the balls to hard cast Raise while mayhem happens. XD

Oh I'm aware. I remember that one Golbez EX party I had where I made a dumb mistake and died, then my cohealer popped their "Swiftcast up in XX:XX" macro and proceeded to cast Glare 6 times without moving, then we wiped to Twin Meteor because not everyone is up.

It goes without saying that if you can cast Glare 4 times without moving, you can hardcast a Raise.

[AmiableApkallu]

But that's a problem of design, my point is that playing that way isn't required. You say it loses dps, yes, it loses some dps, but why do people care unless they're chasing logs? That's my main point, "Why do people complain about optimised play when they also claim that they don't care about logs?".

"Loses DPS." Loses. The connotation is negative. This is a bad thing, and the implication is you're a bad player. Same thing with, "GCD heals are bad." Again, the connotation is negative, and you're a bad player if you have to touch them. The framing is such that optimized play and optimized parties are the baseline expectation.

Consider instead: "Prefer oGCD heals and lilies to GCD heals." And maybe for SCH, "Unused aetherflow charges can be used on Energy Drain for a bit of extra damage, for example, when Aetherflow is about to come off cooldown." The framing here explains how a good healer approaches things. It applies to a wide variety of content and parties. Optimization becomes something to aspire to.

[ty_taurus]

"Loses DPS." Loses. The connotation is negative. This is a bad thing, and the implication is you're a bad player. Same thing with, "GCD heals are bad." Again, the connotation is negative, and you're a bad player if you have to touch them. The framing is such that optimized play and optimized parties are the baseline expectation.

Consider instead: "Prefer oGCD heals and lilies to GCD heals." And maybe for SCH, "Unused aetherflow charges can be used on Energy Drain for a bit of extra damage, for example, when Aetherflow is about to come off cooldown." The framing here explains how a good healer approaches things. It applies to a wide variety of content and parties. Optimization becomes something to aspire to.

Technically, the way the GCD functions, you’re always losing something in favor of something else. You can only cast 1 GCD per 2.5 seconds (or occasionally 1.5 seconds), so every GCD action is directly competing with every other GCD action. The problem is that GCD healing is designed to be the worst possible option: you lose DPS, you lose MP, you lose movement, you lose weaving opportunities… all you gain is healing that is at best barely stronger than OGCD healing and at worst weaker than OGCD healing. “But it’s spammable!” Right in the game that’s more often than not afraid to hit the party more than once a minute. Truly an environment that empowers the value of spammable healing if I’ve ever seen one.

It’s not the community’s fault GCD healing is frowned upon. It’s the designers for doing everything in their power to make GCD healing as unappealing, unhelpful, and unrewarding as possible. And the only exceptions from that rule are DPS neutral GCD heals like Pneuma or lilies. But if healing were reworked such that GCD healing was faster, cheaper, more reliable, more powerful than OGCD healing, then the stigma against it would gradually change.

[Aravell]

Technically, the way the GCD functions, you’re always losing something in favor of something else. You can only cast 1 GCD per 2.5 seconds (or occasionally 1.5 seconds), so every GCD action is directly competing with every other GCD action. The problem is that GCD healing is designed to be the worst possible option: you lose DPS, you lose MP, you lose movement, you lose weaving opportunities… all you gain is healing that is at best barely stronger than OGCD healing and at worst weaker than OGCD healing. “But it’s spammable!” Right in the game that’s more often than not afraid to hit the party more than once a minute. Truly an environment that empowers the value of spammable healing if I’ve ever seen one.

It’s not the community’s fault GCD healing is frowned upon. It’s the designers for doing everything in their power to make GCD healing as unappealing, unhelpful, and unrewarding as possible. And the only exceptions from that rule are DPS neutral GCD heals like Pneuma or lilies. But if healing were reworked such that GCD healing was faster, cheaper, more reliable, more powerful than OGCD healing, then the stigma against it would gradually change.

I honestly don't know why they gave WHM the strongest spammable AoE GCD heal in the game and then proceed to give them better options that don't cost them anything.

It's like they're building healer kits to be as redundant as possible. Although I suppose if they're designing with the end goal of the healer not holding up a group in a dungeon by being inept, then the redundancies probably seem like a good idea to them.

[rawker]

My highly opinionated take on this: They made healer oGCDs the "better" versions of their GCD counterparts which compounds to the problem of making GCD healing look bad.

SCHs had the better idea of what a good oGCD is. Take Emergency Tactics and Recitation. Both abilities do nothing on their own but it modifies the properties of Adloquium - one transforms the barrier to healing and the other negates the MP cost and guarantees a critical heal + Catalyze. You can also combine both and make a mini-Benediction.

As for Aetherflow abilities: Lustrate, Excogitation are way better than Physick(in my opinion should already be taken away and buff the potency of Embrace to compensate) but both are limited to a number of casts per minute. The complaints with regards to losing ED to heal is forgetting that GCD actions have the same dilemma. They just spend different resources but are technically the same tradeoff.

Oh I'm aware. I remember that one Golbez EX party I had where I made a dumb mistake and died, then my cohealer popped their "Swiftcast up in XX:XX" macro and proceeded to cast Glare 6 times without moving, then we wiped to Twin Meteor because not everyone is up.

It goes without saying that if you can cast Glare 4 times without moving, you can hardcast a Raise.

I agree.