[Character Graphics Update]: Second Benchmark Worries

[AdlerTakamura]

Options would be the only way to keep both sides happy.

Person A: OMG I hate the new eyebrows, Square Enix better change them back
Person B: OMG I love the new eyebrows, Square Enix better keep them

Only way to make them happy is to offer both eyebrow options.
Just an example.

[Arkdra]

Options would be the only way to keep both sides happy.

Person A: OMG I hate the new eyebrows, Square Enix better change them back
Person B: OMG I love the new eyebrows, Square Enix better keep them

Only way to make them happy is to offer both eyebrow options.
Just an example.

This doesn't strike me as feasible. Admittedly, I know very little in general about this sort of thing so someone with actual experience can correct me, but they added tons of new bones to the models in the graphics update. The new bones are going to be used to animate cutscenes, emotes, etc. so if they had the old rigs and new rigs split up, they'd have to do 2 different versions of every cutscene and emote to accommodate for this difference in what can be done with the brows, eyes, face, and tongue (which previously had no bones apparently but does now).

[LordMcMutton]

This doesn't strike me as feasible. Admittedly, I know very little in general about this sort of thing so someone with actual experience can correct me, but they added tons of new bones to the models in the graphics update. The new bones are going to be used to animate cutscenes, emotes, etc. so if they had the old rigs and new rigs split up, they'd have to do 2 different versions of every cutscene and emote to accommodate for this difference in what can be done with the brows, eyes, face, and tongue (which previously had no bones apparently but does now).

From what I understand, they shifted to a method where they have a single basemesh for all heads, then use a technique called Shape Keys to 'morph' that base head into the races and their Face variations.

The benefit of this method is that they only have to rig the face once, and it then is present for all of said variations, meaning that all they have to do is edit the existing Shape Keys, or add new Shape Keys. And since the issue is that the new morphs don't follow the original models closely enough, all they need to do is finesse them a bit more.

[smashBG]

From what I understand, they shifted to a method where they have a single basemesh for all heads, then use a technique called Shape Keys to 'morph' that base head into the races and their Face variations.

The benefit of this method is that they only have to rig the face once, and it then is present for all of said variations, meaning that all they have to do is edit the existing Shape Keys, or add new Shape Keys. And since the issue is that the new morphs don't follow the original models closely enough, all they need to do is finesse them a bit more.

This... makes a lot of sense, actually. If I'm not mistaken, this is how clothing is already handled. They don't make a separate mesh for each race, they make two or three for different body types (midlander, lalafell, sometimes highlander) and then use shape keys to tailor them to each race's specific proportions.

Makes me wonder at the possibility of face sliders if/when the character creator receives an overhaul.

[LordMcMutton]

This... makes a lot of sense, actually. If I'm not mistaken, this is how clothing is already handled. They don't make a separate mesh for each race, they make two or three for different body types (midlander, lalafell, sometimes highlander) and then use shape keys to tailor them to each race's specific proportions.

Makes me wonder at the possibility of face sliders if/when the character creator receives an overhaul.

Roegadyn, too!

Face sliders are something I really hope we get at some point- basically every game with character creation face sliders in the past has been executed with Shape Keys, so the foundation is already there now

[Absurdity]

This... makes a lot of sense, actually. If I'm not mistaken, this is how clothing is already handled. They don't make a separate mesh for each race, they make two or three for different body types (midlander, lalafell, sometimes highlander) and then use shape keys to tailor them to each race's specific proportions.

Makes me wonder at the possibility of face sliders if/when the character creator receives an overhaul.

For the body and clothes they're not even using shapekeys as far as I know, female hyur, miqo'te, roegadyn, au ra, viera and elezen all just use the midlander body with different bone scaling applied.

Shapekeys morph the model itself but they need to be done for every individual model since they have different amounts of polygons and vertices and shapekeys tend to break when the amount of them changes. This is why the face shapes don't look quite the same as they did before, they needed to remake the shapekeys for the new updated head models.

Bone scaling on the other hand manipulates the skeleton underneath, it is more limited in what it can do (while still looking acceptable) but applies to all models rigged to said bones. It's how they make most races look different without having to create 17 different versions of the same armor, with bone scaling they only need to make a unique model for male roegadyn, female midlander, male midlander, male highlander (for some reason) and lalafell.

As for the sliders, in 3D modeling programs the shapekeys are already a slider. Now I have no idea how the game handles those specifically, but my assumption is that it picks a fixed point on those sliders to use as the 4-5 customization options for every part of the face.

[HollowedDoll]

For the body and clothes they're not even using shapekeys as far as I know, female hyur, miqo'te, roegadyn, au ra, viera and elezen all just use the midlander body with different bone scaling applied.

Shapekeys morph the model itself but they need to be done for every individual model since they have different amounts of polygons and vertices and shapekeys tend to break when the amount of them changes. This is why the face shapes don't look quite the same as they did before, they needed to remake the shapekeys for the new updated head models.

Bone scaling on the other hand manipulates the skeleton underneath, it is more limited in what it can do (while still looking acceptable) but applies to all models rigged to said bones. It's how they make most races look different without having to create 17 different versions of the same armor, with bone scaling they only need to make a unique model for male roegadyn, female midlander, male midlander, male highlander (for some reason) and lalafell.

As for the sliders, in 3D modeling programs the shapekeys are already a slider. Now I have no idea how the game handles those specifically, but my assumption is that it picks a fixed point on those sliders to use as the 4-5 customization options for every part of the face.

From my understanding the new heads being able to morph into each other via shapekeys is a side effect of remaking the heads using the same base model and UV map rather than something that's actually being used in the end product.

I've seen this practice in other recent games as well. As for actual shapekey usage in this game, from what I've read about this it's either 0 or 1, unlike say visemes in Unity, so it's mostly used to have a certain shape applied for reasons such as overlapping gear. It's noticable with hairs especially because a lot of them drastically change shape rather than just get masked out.

I imagine faces are set up in a similar manner, whether they could turn these values into sliders is anyone's guess I suppose, but one would think if that was the case they would've done so already.

[LordMcMutton]

From my understanding the new heads being able to morph into each other via shapekeys is a side effect of remaking the heads using the same base model and UV map rather than something that's actually being used in the end product.

I've seen this practice in other recent games as well. As for actual shapekey usage in this game, from what I've read about this it's either 0 or 1, unlike say visemes in Unity, so it's mostly used to have a certain shape applied for reasons such as overlapping gear. It's noticable with hairs especially because a lot of them drastically change shape rather than just get masked out.

I imagine faces are set up in a similar manner, whether they could turn these values into sliders is anyone's guess I suppose, but one would think if that was the case they would've done so already.

Rather than a side effect, that's generally the very reason to use the method- it's why it makes it easier, due to removing the need to recreate the UVs and rigging on each one.

On whether or not they can implement sliders, it's possible for an older engine like theirs not to have the function to interact with shape keys. Looking at what we have now in terms of sliders:

The Height and Tail sliders scale the armature, and the Musculature slider overlays a normal map, which leaves the Bust slider as the only possibility for knowing if it's implemented already- I can see that being either bones again, or shapekeys.

[Absurdity]

From my understanding the new heads being able to morph into each other via shapekeys is a side effect of remaking the heads using the same base model and UV map rather than something that's actually being used in the end product.

I've seen this practice in other recent games as well. As for actual shapekey usage in this game, from what I've read about this it's either 0 or 1, unlike say visemes in Unity, so it's mostly used to have a certain shape applied for reasons such as overlapping gear. It's noticable with hairs especially because a lot of them drastically change shape rather than just get masked out.

I imagine faces are set up in a similar manner, whether they could turn these values into sliders is anyone's guess I suppose, but one would think if that was the case they would've done so already.

It might be a side effect, yes, but it still required them to remake all the shapekeys for the different faces. The current retail faces already use shapekeys but they do not use the same base mesh.

You are most likely correct about the shapekeys currently being binary though. The mouth for example has 3 different shapekeys, 1 for each option in the character creator with no active shapekey being the default mouth shape and 4th option.

The Height and Tail sliders scale the armature, and the Musculature slider overlays a normal map, which leaves the Bust slider as the only possibility for knowing if it's implemented already- I can see that being either bones again, or shapekeys.

At least right now all three, the height, tail length and bust size seem to all be done with bone scaling, the are no shapekeys on any of those meshes as far as one can see.

[Loggos]

Options would be the only way to keep both sides happy.

Person A: OMG I hate the new eyebrows, Square Enix better change them back
Person B: OMG I love the new eyebrows, Square Enix better keep them

Only way to make them happy is to offer both eyebrow options.
Just an example.

Seconding this. Especially with mouth options I really think we need more variety. Right now each face basically has one type of mouth shape in the editions: thin, medium, large, slightly compressed medium.
I can really see how some people prefer the new mouth shapes because they do allow for a different type of customisation in a face.

I think if it is in any way possible players should be able to keep their current customisation options* (updated ofc) because many of us did not only choose them out of necessity but because they really resonated with us. But diversifying feature choices by adding the new ones from the current benchmark seems important to me too. They have already put in the work to create the new features after all. That doesn't need go to waste either.

(E.g., I don't think the new mounth shape on female au ra face 4 is objectively worse than the current one, nor is it better. But it's one that also happens to perfectly fit my taste. The new one just doesn't do it for me. To other people the new mouth shape may be a lot more appealing according to their personal taste.)

*(I also don't mean to say they have to delay DT for this. I don't know what the best approach would be. Whether it's doing the graphic update as planned and reintroducing the old features later, fixing everything in 2 months before the launch (not sure this is possible) or postponing the update (but not DT) and then implementing a more polished upgrade later, that hopefully caters to the wishes of those who liked the old features and those who liked the new ones? Speaking for myself, if I knew they'd reintroduce the old options in later patches then I'd be content.)